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Old 09-24-2007, 09:20 AM   #131
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(Still waiting for some evidence of the existence of J E D and P. Not the actual original docs. Gimme a break. EVIDENCE that they existed. Like some mention of them as discreet documents in some ancient text.)
JFC, Dave, where is your evidence that Moses ever existed? The DH makes no claims about the actual identities of these authors. The fact that the Bible exists is pretty positive evidence that someone wrote it, isn't it? You're asking the hypothesis for something it doesn't even claim: the actual identities of the authors.

Now: you have claimed that the DH is wrong. We're already five pages into this thread, and you haven't even attempted to show where it is wrong, let alone marshall any evidence to support your claims as to how it's wrong.

Are you ever going to get around to even stating your position (beyond the DH being "wrong"), let alone supporting it?
An excellent point, Eric. Torah makes no mention of the author; all we have to go on are traditions - which cannot be independently established.
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Old 09-24-2007, 09:28 AM   #132
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Would you object to anyone continuing to eviscerate Dave in your absence?
Eviscerate away. But I'm probably only going to respond to Dean ... unless it's really intelligent sounding.
And who will tell you when it is?
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Old 09-24-2007, 10:03 AM   #133
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Evidence for the Documentary Hypothesis

The Documentary Hypothesis is derived from the text of the Torah, rather than from "basic assumptions" or pre-suppositions. It is the view held by the vast majority of mainstream Biblical scholars - most of which are either Christian or Jewish. This itself is prima facie evidence that the DH is not based on "anti-supernaturalism". Dave has claimed repeatedly that support of the DH is declining rapidly amongst Biblical scholars, but - just like claims that support of Evolution is declining rapidly amongst scientists - such claims are merely empty assertions. Dave has not given any examples of mainstream Biblical scholars who used to support the DH but no longer do. Instead, he has given us Josh McDowell; who is an evangelical apologist, and most certainly not a Biblical scholar. His appeal to this authority is on the level of appealing to Ken Ham as an authority on evolutionary biology. His authority is not an expert in a relevant field of study, and merely attacks a strawman version of the field because it disagrees with his a-priori theological viewpoint.

Firstly, let's look at what the DH actually is, rather than what McDowell and Dave claim it to be...

The DH splits most of the Torah (and much of the post-Torah Deuteronomic History) into four sources.

'J' - or Jahwist.
'E' - or Elohist.
'P' - or Priestly.
'D' - or Deutronomic.

This split is done by a number of criteria.

1) Linguistic style and development.
2) Emphasis on particular themes (including the times at which different names are used for God).
3) Duplication of stories.

The vast majority of the Torah and Deuteronomic History can be split, using these criteria, and placed in one of the four sources. In practice, The majority of Deuteronomy and the Deuteronomic Hstory is assigned to the D source and most of Genesis-Leviticus is split between the other three sources. There are occasional passages or stories that fit into none of the four main sources, and which can therefore be inferred to be other minor documents that have been incorporated into the text. Also, there are a few snippets of text which match no source and appear to have been inserted by the editors who patched the sources together.

Now, on to the evidence itself (most of the information here comes from Professor Richard Friedman's excellent books on the DH).

Basically, we can take a text as long as the Torah and split it up in a myriad of ways. The DH splits it up one way. The translators and scribes of the Bible usually split it a different way (into the 5 books Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy). There are many, many other ways we could split the text up.

So how do we judge whether the way we have split the text is the way it was written? Well, if we look at lots of different aspects of the text where there is variation - and the variation correlates strongly with our splits - then it is likely that our splits match the structure of the document itself. Conversely, if we look at lots of different aspects of the text where there is variation, and the variation correlates only weakly (or not at all) with our splits, then it is likely that our splits are arbitrary and do not correspond to the structure of the document itself.

That's right. The DH is based on - wait for it - consilience between many independant measures. Dave's favourite word.

So, without further ado, let's look at some of these measures (I am summarising heavily here. There is much more evidence than can be fit in a single forum post):

1) Theological Interests

a) Name of God - The multiple sources all use both Yahweh and Elohim (the claim that the DH splits the text between text that uses one name and text that uses the other is another strawman). However, if we look at all the J texts, they are consistent in that people started to call God Yahweh right from the beginning (Gen 4:1 and Gen 4:26). The P and E texts, however, are both consistent in that people only started to call God Yahweh when he revealed his name to Moses (Ex 6:2-3). Additionally, whilst the J author does call God Elohim, he only ever does this whilst narrating events - he never has a character refer to God as Elohim.

b) Nature and Role of Priests - In all the P text, priests of the line of Aaron are the only people with access/communication to God. There are no angelic visitations, dreams, talking animals, or anything else like that. All the other sources include God communicating with people via these means. E and D both repeatedly refer to prophets and prophesy. Neither P nor J ever does (P uses the word once - metaphorically - to refer to Aaron himself). P never mentions judges - only allowing Aaronid priests to mediate. P also does not classify non-Aaronid Levites as priests, and only allows the Aaronids have access to the Urim and Tummim. P only allows atonement for sins via sacrifices brought to Aaronid priests. In short, in P sources, the Aaronid priests and only the Aaronid priests have access to God. In D, on the other hand, all Levites are considered priests.

c) Nature of God - in P, as I have mentioned, the only contact with God is through priests. God never appears in person. He is never referred to as merciful or kind - indeed, the words "mercy", "kindness", "grace" and "repentence" are never used in P. The God described in P is implacable and all stories about him refer only to his wrath and justice; never to positive character traits. All the stories with positive (and more human) character traits of God are in J and E. In J, on the other hand, God makes frequent personal appearances. He walks in the garden in Eden, personally makes Adam and Eve's clothes, personally closes the door of the Ark, and so on. In E as well, God wrestles with Jacob and appears personally to Moses. In P, on the other hand, God never makes a personal appearance.

d) The Tabernacle is mentioned more than two hundred times. All except three of these are in P (where it recieves huge amounts of attention). E and J never mention it once.

e) J often refers to the Ark of the Covenant. E never mentions it once.

f) The Urim and Tummim, divining items that the High Priest holds, are mentioned only in P.

g) In E, it is only ever Moses's staff that performs miracles. In P, it is only ever Aaron's staff that performs miracles.

2) Doublets and Triplets

There are more than 30 cases of repetition of stories and/or laws in the Torah. Often the two (or occasionally even three) versions will be slightly different. There are also many apparent contradictions. When the Torah is split stylistically into the J, E, P and D sources; all these every single one of these repetitions ends up with the two or three different versions being in different styles and from different sources. I won't bother listing them all here. Similarly, the vast majority of the apparent contradictions disappear since the contradictory text is split between different sources.

3) Linguistic Evidence

In the same way that one can easily tell Chaucer from Shakespeare, Shakespeare from Dickens, and Dickens from modern authors by the changes in the English language that have taken place over the centuries, we can also distinguish between different ages of the Hebrew language used in the Bible.

a) The Hebrew used in both J and E is early Hebrew.

b) The Hebrew used in P is from a later development of the language, but still earlier than the Exilic period.

c) The Hebrew used in D is from a later still development of the language, from the Exilic period.

4) Narrative Continuity

a) We can take each of the four sources individually, and reading only the text that is stylistically assigned to that source in isolation we get a continuous narrative in more than 90% of the text breaks. For example, the J text taken individually - skipping over all non-J text - it shows a consistent narrative flow as if it were a single written document.

b) Additionally, the J and E texts show narrative flow when combined together. They also show ideosyncratic phrases at their joins as if they were combined by an editor who left traces of their handiwork as they stitched the two sources together.

c) Similarly, the places where J and E are joined to P show phrases that indicate traces of a (different) editor.

4) Similarity to other parts of the Bible

a) The language and terminology of D is very similar to the language and terminology of the book of Jeremiah. None of the other sources are.

b) The language and terminology of P is very similar to the language and terminology of the book of Ezekiel. None of the other sources are.

c) The book of Hosea quotes and/or refers to sections of the Torah. It only ever does so with regard to sections assigned to the E and J sources, however; not the P and D sources.

d) The Court History of David (most of 2 Samuel), as well as much of Joshua, Judges and 1 Samuel, is very similar in language and terminology to the J source - to the extent that some scholars believe it was written by the same hand.

5) Miscellaneous Stylistics

a) J and P both refer to Mount Sinai repeatedly. E and D refer to it as Mount Horeb. There are no exceptions to this.

b) The phrase "in that very day" is not found in any source other than P.

c) The phrase "with all your heart and with all your soul" only ever occurs in D.

There are a couple of dozen examples like these of phrases used only in one source and never in others. Again, I won't bother listing them all here.



Conclusion

There is much more evidence than I have presented here, but this should be enough for starters.

It could be argued that any of the distinctions made above is arbitrary. For example, it could be argued that the reason doublets and triplets split between the sources is that the sources were deliberately arranged that way.

However, this misses the point. The point is the consilience between all the different measures. Whichever way you arrive at the split into J, E, P and D, the split agrees with all the other measures of difference within the text.

In other words, the DH explains the consilience between the different ways of dividing the text. Whether it is divided by author's theological interest or divided by age of language or divided to split duplications we arrive at the same source texts. And these source texts - that were derived by other means - each have consistency in phraseology and a consistent narrative flow. If the splitting of the text by any of these criteria was arbitrary, then we would not see such consistency with the other ways of splitting it.

Given the age of the Hebrew in each of these sources, and the presence of the "stitching" phrases between them, it would be unreasonable to come to any conclusion other than:

Originally J and E were written, telling the same stories with slightly different emphases. At some point these were edited together into a single JE document. Some time after the writing of the first documents, a P document was written - telling the same stories but with a very different theological basis. Some time later still, a D document was written telling the more recent history of Judah and Israel (and claiming that they were once a unified kingdom). At some point after this, all four documents were edited together into a single document that became the Torah we know.

Of course, if we wanted to go into detail, we can actually infer much more about exactly where and when each of the documents was written - but that is way beyond the scope of this current discussion.

Dave's hypothesis (or rather, Wiseman's hypothesis that Dave is parrotting) says that the J, E, P and D splits are in the wrong place. His hypothesis is that the text should be split into a series of "Tablets" each written by a Biblical character (Adam, Noah, etc). He places the splits such that we have the entire text of "Adam's Tablet", and then the entire text of the next tablet, and so on. This, of course, means that within each tablet there is a variety of writing styles and writing in Hebrew of a variety of ages.

So, Dave - the ball is in your court.

How does your theory of Biblical authorship explain the consilience between the different ways in which there are textual differences? How do you explain the fact that when split using the DH, the text sources are consistent when each of these criteria is applied - yet when split using your criteria, the sources are inconsistent when each of the criteria is applied?
Thanks for this, Dean. I've printed it out to keep as reference.
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Old 09-24-2007, 10:10 AM   #134
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Would you object to anyone continuing to eviscerate Dave in your absence?
Eviscerate away. But I'm probably only going to respond to Dean ... unless it's really intelligent sounding.
Dave, compared to what you've posted so far, everything posted by everyone else sounds pretty intelligent.

I mean, I know jack shit about biblical scholarship, and don't pretend otherwise. But it really seems like you know even less about it than I do. So far, every criticism you have made of the documentary hypothesis has absolutely nothing to do with what that hypothesis actually claims. Your talking about the relative importance of archaeology, disputations about the reality of the supernatural, etc., have fuck-all to do with the documentary hypothesis. Even i can see that.

So when are you going to say something about the DH that's actually intelligent-sounding?
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Old 09-24-2007, 10:34 AM   #135
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Moving on through Dave's inaccurate posts, we find this gem:
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2) ARGUMENTUM AD POPULUM. Dean wants us to believe that the DH must be true because a large number of scholars adhere to it.
Quote:
It is the view held by the vast majority of mainstream Biblical scholars - most of which are either Christian or Jewish.
This is a well known logical fallacy. Click here for info on this fallacy ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_the_majority
And here Dave displays one of those interesting confusions that characterize all of his posting.

Using Josh McDowell to claim the DH is in error is an appeal to authority. The essence of the appeal to authority is that another party is used to justify a statement solely on the basis of the other party making the statement. Virtually everything Dave posts is an argument from authority - though Dave has admitted that he is not actually capable of following the arguments that he cites. And note carefully that Dean has not appealed to mainstream acceptance as a reason for accepting the DH - that would be an argument from authority. Dean is making a statement that it is the mainstream position - and Dean then goes on to establish why that is the case.
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Old 09-24-2007, 10:50 AM   #136
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Originally Posted by afdave
(Still waiting for some evidence of the existence of J E D and P. Not the actual original docs. Gimme a break. EVIDENCE that they existed. Like some mention of them as discreet documents in some ancient text.)
What is the evidence of tablets written by Adam and Noah, mentioned as discrete documents in some ancient text?
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Old 09-24-2007, 11:38 AM   #137
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(Still waiting for some evidence of the existence of J E D and P. Not the actual original docs. Gimme a break. EVIDENCE that they existed. Like some mention of them as discreet documents in some ancient text.)
Here's your evidence right here. Deal with it.
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Old 09-24-2007, 12:03 PM   #138
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There are some things to keep in mind about Kitchen - the sole authority Dave has offered in this space - and one who, we might note, has not changed his mind about anything. Since he was offered as an example of how scholars are coming over to the position that the DH is false, it seems relevant to point out that he is not a convert. Consider
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In other words, all of the Pentateuch, including those passages that deal with kings [an institution that was not begun until 200 + years later than Moses], prophets [traced in the biblical text to Samuel], "sin" during an era of "Judges," is second millennium and Mosaic. Why Moses might have written in classical biblical Hebrew [instead of Egyptian!] and then switched to a different dialect in Deuteronomy; Kitchen does not address, just as he avoids the issue of dating an extra-biblical Balaam text that does not fit into his scheme. But from the biblical text itself, Professor Kitchen can no more prove his own assertions about a Ramesside foreign ministry baccalaureate degree for Moses than his opponents can prove the opposite. That is the point. Professor Kitchen is just as alacritous about inventing possibilities to sustain a point of view [his!] as are the very foes whom he so roundly condemns. Both resort to their own theories and step outside the evidence whenever necessary to sustain a personal ideology. (emphasis added)
from here.
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Old 09-24-2007, 12:46 PM   #139
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Hey Afdave ...

Since you're such an expert on Archaeology and you say it supports your Biblical view of the world, were I to challenge you to a formal debate about whether or not Archaeology supports the Bible, would you do it?

Please note, I'm just asking publicly so that everyone knows I've asked ...
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Old 09-24-2007, 12:50 PM   #140
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Hey Afdave ...

Since you're such an expert on Archaeology and you say it supports your Biblical view of the world, were I to challenge you to a formal debate about whether or not Archaeology supports the Bible, would you do it?

Please note, I'm just asking publicly so that everyone knows I've asked ...
Dave would run in terror from such a challenge. :devil1:
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