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Old 12-16-2009, 08:54 AM   #351
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Message to freetrader: I will number my arguments for easy reference.

Item #1

Quote:
Originally Posted by freetrader
.......if no one saw him do anything unusual, then he would have been forgotten.
A good deal of evidence shows that he "was" largely forgotten in the first century, which is the century that should have had the "fastest" growth because of the presence of thousands of supposed still living eyewitnesses, but that did not happen. If Jesus did not perform any miracles, it would obviously have been much easier in the second century to get away with claiming that he performed miracles since most of the eyewitnesses would have been dead.

Item #2

Quote:
Originally Posted by freetrader
If you entertain the hypothesis that Jesus really did perform miracle cures and that his resurrection really did happen, then you have a clear explanation for how the account of him spread beyond his death via word-of-mouth and finally led to the New Testament documents which we know did emerge.
Better stated, if you entertain the hypothesis that Jesus did not perform miracles, that easily explains why the Christian church was barely noticeable in the first century, and why the Romans apparently did not pay any attention to the miracles. Of course, if there weren’t any miracles, there would not have been anything for the Romans to pay attention to.
freetrader

Item #3

Quote:
Originally Posted by freetrader
.......there was no collaboration between the gospel writers, but each one wrote his own account independently.......
Evidence please. Perhaps you would like to start a new thread about independent sources.

Item #4

Quote:
Originally Posted by freetrader
The uniqueness of Jesus, or what separates him from all other reputed miracle-workers, is that within his life he had no wide reputation or status or recognition.......
Not according the the Bible. Consider the following Scriptures from the KJV:

Matthew 4:23-25

"And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people. And his fame went throughout all Syria: and they brought unto him all sick people that were taken with divers diseases and torments, and those which were possessed with devils, and those which were lunatick, and those that had the palsy; and he healed them. And there followed him great multitudes of people from Galilee, and from Decapolis, and from Jerusalem, and from Judaea, and from beyond Jordan."

John 20:30-31

"And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples which are not written in this book. But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name."

Consider the following Scriptures from the NIV:

Acts 14:3 says “So Paul and Barnabas spent considerable time there, speaking boldly for the Lord, who confirmed the message of his grace by enabling them to do miraculous signs and wonders.

The texts say that his fame went throughout all of Syria, and that he also performed miracles in many other places, and yet you said "within his life he had no wide reputation or status or recognition." Doesn't fame imply status and recognition?

Item #5

Quote:
Originally Posted by freetrader
.......if no one saw him do anything unusual, then he would have been forgotten.
If he did do unusual things, wouldn't doing unusual things have made him famous and given him wide reputation, status, and recognition?

Item #6

Quote:
Originally Posted by freetrader
.......there had to already be a tradition about Jesus, spreading among Greeks and Romans by word of mouth, which provided an audience or market for the gospel accounts, which would have served no purpose if the Jesus character was a totally unknown alien figure to be invented by an evangelist and drawn out of a hat from nowhere, in which case it would have been rejected out of hand by the Greeks and Romans and the evangelist run out of town on a rail.
If Jesus did not perform any miracles, then there couldn't have been much of a market for his miracles among Greeks, Romans, or anyone else. It appears that that is what happened, reference, for example, Rodney Stark's estimate in "The Rise of Christianity" that there were approximately 7,530 Christians in the entire world in 100 A.D.

Where did you get the notion that "there had to already be a tradition about Jesus, spreading among Greeks and Romans by word of mouth, which provided an audience or market for the gospel accounts......."?

If the body of Jesus was not put in Joseph of Arimathaea's tomb, obviously there was not a stolen body tradition until the tradition was made up years after Jesus died. Do you believe that a stolen body tradition existed soonafter Jesus died? If so, based upon what evidence?

Item #7

Quote:
Originally Posted by freetrader
If there is no truth to the basic picture of Jesus as a miracle-worker who did cures on a uniquely-grand scale, or to the resurrection story, then how did this collection of writings come about which makes all these claims?
Quote:
Originally Posted by freetrader
The uniqueness of Jesus, or what separates him from all other reputed miracle-workers, is that within his life he had no wide reputation or status or recognition.......
"A miracle-worker who did cures on a uniquely-grand scale" contradicts "within his life he had no wide reputation or status or recognition." Please clarify what your position actually is.
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