Originally Posted by stephan huller

You are funny. Philo wrote an account about Jewish ascetics. Eusebius acknowledges they were Jewish but says they came over to accept Jesus. Understand?

Originally Posted by stephan huller

Do you find Philo's writings offensive? Have you ever read his analysis? Why not try that for a while. The most likely scenario is that the group he calls 'therapeutai' share the same beliefs and practices as he did.

Originally Posted by stephan huller, post 134

No Philo makes that plain. They were a Jewish sect. No one doubts that.

Originally Posted by Toto, post 143, countering mountainman's citation from Harvard Theological Review

This article is about how Eusebius interpreted Philo's Jewish Theraputae as Christian or proto-Christians. There is nothing there to support the idea that this group that Philo described were pagans.

Originally Posted by Robert Tulip, post 145

It is as plain as the nose on your face that Philo does not describe the therapeuts as exclusively Jewish. I proved this already and here it is again, with emphasis added.

Originally Posted by Toto, post 146

If the Therapeutae were pagans, why did they study the Jewish scripture?

Originally Posted by stephan huller post 212

For those who are interested - the Greek text of Philo's On the Contemplative Life (the only one on the internet):
http://nameless-faceless.net/biblio/...templativa.php

Originally Posted by stephan huller, post 232, commenting on Robert Tulip's erudite post 231

I am fascinated to see whether you have enough honesty in you to admit the truth. Not my truth, not Taylor's truth but the truth of how Philo consistently uses the term 'Therapeutai' and ultimate the Jewish nature of the sect itself. Please don't let me down Robert. I sincerely hope that you have the ability to admit the truth, the truth that is plainly evidence from the writings you obviously haven't read or haven't read closely enough.

Originally Posted by stephan huller post 235

That was a very disappointing response. You can read. You should know the difference between citing the opinion of an outdated historian with no specialized knowledge of the subject matter (= Gibbon) and Eusebius who has long been recognized to be in error for claiming the sect was Christian against a professor who specializes in this field (Joan Taylor is Professor of Christian Origins and Second Temple Judaism at King's College London http://www.kcl.ac.uk/artshums/depts/...lor/index.aspx). You're still pretending there is any doubt about the status of the sect being Jewish. There is no doubt about the sects Jewishness. It is taken for granted in any study or any mention by a reputable scholar. The point of citing Taylor is to go beyond that and demonstrate Philo's consist use of therapeutai in his writings to mean 'attendants of God' and specifically the Levites and related figures in the running of the contemporary Jewish religion. It is unfortunate that very little of the Greek text of Philo has been placed on line but Taylor went through, text by text and I published her findings. There can now be no doubt about (a) Philo's Jewishness (b) Philo's application of the specific term therapeutai to the contemporary Jewish religion and (c) the specific understanding of the existence of a sect who are called by that name who lived near Lake Mareotis and embody the 'contemplative life' which Philo elsewhere says is the life chosen by Levites who reach a certain age (a sect in turn who Taylor identifies as being called 'therapeutai' on more than one occasion in his other writings).

Originally Posted by Iskander, post 238, refuting post 212

http://khazarzar.skeptik.net/books/philo/

Originally Posted by aa5874, post 258

The Therapeutae had their OWN Scripture and Philosophy.

Originally Posted by Toto, post 279

Read through the thread. Philo gives many indications that the group he called Therapeutae studied the Jewish scriptures. Is that not an indication that they were Jewish?

Originally Posted by stephan huller, post 336

How can any reasonable person say the Therapeutai weren't Jewish.

Originally Posted by aa5874, post 372

It is clear that Philo wrote SEPARATE books about the Essenes and the Therapeutae.
And in his books 'about the Essenes he NEVER EVER even once referred to the Therapeutae.
In Philo's "Apology for the Jews" and "All Good Men are Free" it is as if the Therapeatau NEVER existed.
Philo wrote extensively about the Essenes and made sure to claim that they were Jews or of Jewish origin--not so with the Therapeutae.
Philo wrote a Separate book to deal with the Therapeutae.

Originally Posted by tanya, post 375

I deny that the Therapeutae were a Jewish sect. I deny that Philo's text confirms your hypothesis. Philo described Hercules in glowing terms in his letter to Gaius, are we then supposed to imagine that simply because Philo wrote something appreciative of the Greek mythical demigod, that therefore he was a believer in that nonsense? Nowhere in his description, does Philo reference the community as being of the Hebrew religious affiliation.

Originally Posted by tanya, post 390

The temples of Asklepius, unless you have some reference to the contrary, are in harmony with the work of Hippocrates, dogma which explicitly rejects superstitious thinking, and which demands clinical observation i.e. empiricist methodology.

Originally Posted by Toto, post 392

But he does say that they study Jewish scripture, keep the Sabbath, and follow Jewish based rituals.

Originally Posted by tanya, post 395

Did the Jews living in Palestine and Alexandria, 2000 years ago, have shrines in their homes?
Did the Jews have a similar custom, saying prayers twice each day, seven days a week, at sunrise and sunset? Was this custom introduced to Judaism, by the Zoroastrian influence during the sojurn in Baghdad, or is the custom described in documents dating from the First Temple period, 600 BCE, the time of Apastamba?
Philo demonstrates that these folks, the therapeutae:

a. live by themselves, not in urban areas (among the Jews!!);

b. study ancient texts, presumably in Greek, and I would then assume, since Philo quotes both Hippocrates and Homer, that the Therapeutae were reading those famous texts, not the epistles of Paul!! Does Philo explicitly claim that the Therapeutae are praying to YHWH? Does he claim that they are studying LXX? If these Therapeutae are Jews, why is Philo not mentioning the HEBREW texts studied by the Therapeutae? Philo devotes a couple of sentences, at the beginnning, discussing Greek, the language, as though it were relevant to the Therapeutae. If Greek language skills were not relevant to the Therapeutae, why does Philo discuss Greek, and not Hebrew, instead?

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar, post 652

Sorry stephan but if this is a proper translation, it does not at all seem to be saying what you are stating.
Perhaps you are reading it from a Greek text, and your translation direct from Greek does not agree with this English translation we have been supplied with?
Does the Greek of your text indicate "in every house there is a sacred shrine which is called the holy place"?
or that there was just "the shrine in the monastery"?
Is the Greek text that unclear on the distinction?

Originally Posted by stephan huller, post 661

Do you find Philo's writings offensive? Have you ever read his analysis? Why not try that for a while. The most likely scenario is that the group he calls 'therapeutai' share the same beliefs and practices as he did.

Originally Posted by Philo

but the deliberate intention of the philosopher is at once displayed from the appellation given to them; for with strict regard to etymology, they are called therapeutae and therapeutrides, {1}{from therapeuoµ, "to heal."} either because they process an art of medicine more excellent than that in general use in cities ....

Originally Posted by Iskander's source

2. ἡ δὲ προαίρεσις τῶν φιλοσόφων εὐθὺς ἐμφαίνεται διὰ τῆς προσρήσεως· θεραπευταὶ γὰρ καὶ θεραπευτρίδες ἐτύμως καλοῦνται, ἤτοι παρόσον ἰατρικὴν ἐπαγγέλλονται κρείσσονα τῆς κατὰ πόλεις – ἡ μὲν γὰρ σώματα θεραπεύει μόνον, ἐκείνη δὲ καὶ ψυχὰς νόσοις κεκρατημένας χαλεπαῖς τε καὶ δυσιάτοις, ἃς ἐγκατέσκηψαν ἡδοναὶ καὶ ἐπιθυμίαι καὶ λῦπαι καὶ φόβοι πλεονεξίαι τε καὶ ἀφροσύναι καὶ ἀδικίαι καὶ τὸ τῶν ἄλλων παθῶν καὶ κακιῶν ἀνήνυτον πλῆθος – ἢ παρόσον ἐκ φύσεως καὶ τῶν ἱερῶν νόμων ¦ ἐπαιδεύθησαν θεραπεύειν τὸ ὄν, ὃ καὶ ἀγαθοῦ κρεῖττόν ἐστι καὶ ἑνὸς εἰλικρινέστερον καὶ μονάδος ἀρχεγονώτερον.

Originally Posted by stephan's source

ἡ δε προαιρεσις των φιλοσοφων ευθυς εμφαινεται δια της προσρησεως θεραπευται γαρ και θεραπευτριδες ετυμως καλουνται ητοι παροσον ιατρικην επαγγελλονται κρεισσονα της κατα πολεις ἡ μεν γαρ σωματα θεραπευει μονον εκεινη δε και ψυχας νοσοις κεκρατημενας χαλεπαις τε και δυσιατοις ἁς εγκατεσκηψαν ἡδοναι και επιθυμιαι και λυπαι και φοβοι πλεονεξιαι τε και αφροσυναι και αδικιαι και το των αλλων παθων και κακιων ανηνυτον πληθος η παροσον εκ φυσεως και των ἱερων νομων επαιδευθησαν θεραπευειν το ον ὁ και αγαθου κρειττον εστι και ἑνος ειλικρινεστερον και μοναδος αρχεγονωτερον

Originally Posted by Philo

And in every house there is a sacred shrine which is called the holy place, and the monastery in which they retire by themselves and perform all the mysteries of a holy life, bringing in nothing, neither meat, nor drink, nor anything else which is indispensable towards supplying the necessities of the body, but studying in that place the laws and the sacred oracles of God enunciated by the holy prophets, and hymns, and psalms, and all kinds of other things by reason of which knowledge and piety are increased and brought to perfection.
(27) And they are accustomed to pray twice every day, at morning and at evening; when the sun is rising entreating God that the happiness of the coming day may be real happiness, so that their minds may be filled with heavenly light, and when the sun is setting they pray that their soul, being entirely lightened and relieved of the burden of the outward senses, and of the appropriate object of these outward senses, may be able to trace out truth existing in its own consistory and council chamber.

Originally Posted by Philo, using Iskander's Greek source

25. ἐν ἑκάστῃ δέ ἐστιν οἴκημα ἱερόν, ὃ καλεῖται σεμνεῖον καὶ μοναστήριον, ἐν ᾧ μονούμενοι τὰ τοῦ σεμνοῦ βίου μυστήρια τελοῦνται, μηδὲν εἰσκομίζοντες, μὴ ποτόν, μὴ σιτίον, μηδέ τι τῶν ἄλλων ὅσα πρὸς τὰς τοῦ σώματος χρείας ἀναγκαῖα, ἀλλὰ νόμους καὶ λόγια θεσπισθέντα διὰ προφητῶν καὶ ὕμνους καὶ τὰ ἄλλα οἷς ἐπιστήμη καὶ εὐσέβεια συναύξονται καὶ τελειοῦνται.
...
27. δὶς δὲ καθ’ ἑκάστην ἡμέραν εἰώθασιν εὔχεσθαι, περὶ τὴν ἕω καὶ περὶ τὴν ἑσπέραν, ἡλίου μὲν ἀνίσχοντος εὐημερίαν αἰτούμενοι τὴν ὄντως εὐημερίαν, φωτὸς οὐρανίου τὴν διάνοιαν αὐτῶν ἀναπλησθῆναι, δυομένου δὲ ὑπὲρ τοῦ τὴν ψυχὴν τοῦ τῶν αἰσθήσεων καὶ αἰσθητῶν ὄχλου παντελῶς ἐπικουφισθεῖσαν, ἐν τῷ ἑαυτῆς συνεδρίῳ καὶ βουλευτηρίῳ γενομένην, ἀλήθειαν ἰχνηλατεῖν.

Originally Posted by Plato, Republic Book 1, section 332C

ὦ πρὸς Διός, ἦν δ᾽ ἐγώ, εἰ οὖν τις αὐτὸν ἤρετο: ‘ὦ Σιμωνίδη, ἡ τίσιν οὖν τί ἀποδιδοῦσα ὀφειλόμενον καὶ προσῆκον τέχνη ἰατρικὴ καλεῖται;’ τί ἂν οἴει ἡμῖν αὐτὸν ἀποκρίνασθαι

Originally Posted by Philo

θεραπευταὶ γὰρ καὶ θεραπευτρίδες ἐτύμως καλοῦνται, ἤτοι παρόσον ἰατρικὴν ἐπαγγέλλονται κρείσσονα τῆς κατὰ πόλεις

Originally Posted by stepan huller post #651

We needn't think then that the community was even called 'therapeutai' necessarily.
It could have been a name that Philo gave to the sect.