Freethought & Rationalism Archive

mountainman · 10-09-2011, 04:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GakuseiDon

Hi Pete -- Archibald asked to keep this thread debate-free, so that people can just list their own personal summary of their position. So if you'd like to raise this in another thread, let's argue it over there.

Poor old archibald. All the work I'm giving him. Sorry archers

Sloncha !

Quote:

Originally Posted by archibald

Here's a thread I've been meaning to start for a while. Poor Old toto. All the work I'm giving him. Sorry Toters.

Here's the deal. For those, and only those, who are interested, and willing to play by the rules (please don't spoil the thread otherwize)

I would like each poster to:

1. Place themselves on a sliding scale, by allocating themselves a number. Zero for neutral/agnostic, plus numbers for MJ (see how fair minded I am? lol) and negative numbers for HJ. So, -1 would be ever so slightly in favour of an HJ explanation, +1 would be ever so slightly in favour of MJ, and so on. Probably best not to have it unlimited in scale (need an absolute I think) so a maximum of -100 or +100 would be for certainty in either directon.

2. List your top 3 reasons, in order of importance, for both MJ and HJ. Keep it short and succinct, if possible. Think Twitter. I would ask for max. 3 lines per point. Though two words will also do.:]

If you really feel the 'other' side has nothing in it's favour, you may just list (i), (ii) and (iii) and leave blank, though I hope no one will, since it's part of my curiosity, and hopefully stimulating, and please make it clear which sides your points are listed on in any case. Obviously, you don't need to 'weigh' your points, since your rating will hopefully give some indication.

Also, please take MJ to essentially mean 'not having existed on earth in any tangible human or humanlike form'. I hope this doesn't cause some people to feel they haven't been catered for.

I myself have to go out now, so will do my own posting later.

Ciao.

Here's an example, suggested format.

A. Personal rating: -2 ( or, if you like, -10 to +10, fluctuating)

B. MJ points.

(i) I believe Paul's Jesus is non-earthly....
(ii) Too many contradictions....especially...
(iii) Too many interpolations, in particular.....

C. HJ pionts
(i) 'Q', because.....
(ii) The Gospel of Thomas, because.......
(iii) He's here in my house right now

A Personal rating: 0% historicity

See Carrier's definition of historicity for Christ's sake archibald.

Or why invent something for a term that already exists in the field?
We have had recent exchanges on the notion of historicity.

B. MJ Points

(i) Source evidence: 325 No unambiguous scientific evidence before the Nicaean Constantine Bible.
(ii) Source evidence: 325 ARIUS: "There was a time when he was not" / "He was made out of nothing existing" / etc
(iii) Source evidence: 361 JULIAN: "The fabrication of the Christians is a fiction of men composed by wickedness"

C. HJ Points

(i) Source evidence: War is a racket. Eusebius was paid good gold solidi to fabricate the history of the "Nation of Christians" and the Jesus Church.
(ii) Source evidence: Constantine's mother Helena (the 2nd Christian Pilgrim to the Holy Land) found the One True Cross and Nails in the 4th century.
(iii) Source evidence: The C14 suggests that the Gnostics satirized and parodied a Jesus they found in the Constantine Bibe. (See MJ, (i))

Sloncha !

dog-on · 10-10-2011, 03:03 AM

1. +1

2. Few if any references used in the construction of this figure are not found in pre-existing material

3. No possible way to refute the existence of an unknown individual from 2000 years ago without a.) knowing specifically who we are talking about and b.) having evidence of a contemporary specifically refuting the existence this (unknown) person.

DCHindley · 10-10-2011, 04:55 AM

Although I may yet live to regret this, I shall cross my beady eyes and wag my pointy finger, and the daimone on my shoulder will guide me,* and say:

1. Personal rating: 0 ("officially" neutral, but that doesn't mean I don't have my opinion, which is weighted on the side of historicity, although that's not same as saying he existed as described in the NT).

2. 'MJ' reasons:

(i) No "slam dunk" near-contemporary historical reference to him outside of christian literature.
(ii) Christians are uncertain as to his date of birth or death, and knowledge of his family and their beliefs regarding his significance are largely legendary. Any concrete details seem plucked from Jewish scripture and applied to him.
(iii) Jewish lore associated with the person of Jesus all point to dates widely at variance with the Christian belief that he flourished during Pilate's rule of Judea. In other words, they couldn't figure out who he was either.

3. 'HJ' reasons

(i) The acknowledgement that Jesus was crucified by the Romans.
(ii) The gospels can be seen as "Apologies" intended to explain away this fact.
(iii) High Christology (where he is a divine redeemer) is more easily explained as due to the the gradual development from an apocalyptic figure to a mystery figure.

Amen

DCH

*I hope you all have figured out by now that I have a sense of humor ...

maryhelena · 10-10-2011, 06:07 AM

Personal rating: +100

MJ reasons:

(i) JC, without his mythological clothes is useless for theological purposes. Early Christian belief, if it was so, in a resurrection of a human man, is of no concern or relevance for research into early Christian history. History deals with reality not theological speculation. The gospel JC cannot be separated from the supernatural elements. Cherry-picking the JC story does not result in a HJ - it results in creating an image of ones own assumptions.

(ii) Impossibility to find historical evidence for a nobody crucified carpenter. Such a figure, if existed, is lost to history - and, therefore, is a dead-end for research into early Christian origins.

(iii) Minus the supernatural elements of the gospel ministry, either 1 year or 3 years - there is no deed, no action, within that ministry, worthy of being memorialized.

HJ reasons:

(i) -100
(ii) -100
(iii) -100

MCalavera · 10-10-2011, 06:14 AM

Those +100 posts are nuts and lacking in objectivity. :down:

Iskander · 10-10-2011, 07:39 AM

Jesus was turned into a god by pagan Greeks and pagan Romans.

Both Greeks and Romans were in the habit of making gods from real humans; like doctor Frankenstein, the maker of living corpses.

Jesus was a Jewish man and the Jewish people did not turn him into a god, nor have their Muslim cousins.

Jesus was a real man is the most likely explanation.

Sheshbazzar · 10-10-2011, 07:40 AM

Those +100 posts identify the Skeptics and Atheists not infected with any strain of the virulent ZJBD.:thumbs:

archibald · 10-10-2011, 08:02 AM

Could I politely and respectfully ask everyone to bite their tongue and refrain from turning this particular thread into yet another debate?

I know it's hard to resist. It is for me too.

Cheers.

Archibald.

jakejonesiv · 10-10-2011, 12:59 PM

...

jules? · 10-10-2011, 04:35 PM

+100 to -100

mythical
1/ lives on the north pole with elvish workers
2/ rides everywhere on one night with flying reindeer
3/ knows if you have been naughty or nice

historical
1/ I think there really was someone once who was quite nice to kids and they made him a saint as opposed to those not nice who were made into priests.
2/ I saw him in town at the mall, and I know he's everywhere. Once saw him in a Tunisian hotel
3/ come on its Christmas, stop being such a scrooge.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

10-10-2011, 03:03 AM	#12
dog-on Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 3,397	1. +1 2. Few if any references used in the construction of this figure are not found in pre-existing material 3. No possible way to refute the existence of an unknown individual from 2000 years ago without a.) knowing specifically who we are talking about and b.) having evidence of a contemporary specifically refuting the existence this (unknown) person.

10-10-2011, 04:55 AM	#13
DCHindley Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Mondcivitan Republic Posts: 2,550	Although I may yet live to regret this, I shall cross my beady eyes and wag my pointy finger, and the daimone on my shoulder will guide me,* and say: 1. Personal rating: 0 ("officially" neutral, but that doesn't mean I don't have my opinion, which is weighted on the side of historicity, although that's not same as saying he existed as described in the NT). 2. 'MJ' reasons: (i) No "slam dunk" near-contemporary historical reference to him outside of christian literature. (ii) Christians are uncertain as to his date of birth or death, and knowledge of his family and their beliefs regarding his significance are largely legendary. Any concrete details seem plucked from Jewish scripture and applied to him. (iii) Jewish lore associated with the person of Jesus all point to dates widely at variance with the Christian belief that he flourished during Pilate's rule of Judea. In other words, they couldn't figure out who he was either. 3. 'HJ' reasons (i) The acknowledgement that Jesus was crucified by the Romans. (ii) The gospels can be seen as "Apologies" intended to explain away this fact. (iii) High Christology (where he is a divine redeemer) is more easily explained as due to the the gradual development from an apocalyptic figure to a mystery figure. Amen DCH *I hope you all have figured out by now that I have a sense of humor ...

10-10-2011, 06:07 AM	#14
maryhelena Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: England Posts: 2,527	Personal rating: +100 MJ reasons: (i) JC, without his mythological clothes is useless for theological purposes. Early Christian belief, if it was so, in a resurrection of a human man, is of no concern or relevance for research into early Christian history. History deals with reality not theological speculation. The gospel JC cannot be separated from the supernatural elements. Cherry-picking the JC story does not result in a HJ - it results in creating an image of ones own assumptions. (ii) Impossibility to find historical evidence for a nobody crucified carpenter. Such a figure, if existed, is lost to history - and, therefore, is a dead-end for research into early Christian origins. (iii) Minus the supernatural elements of the gospel ministry, either 1 year or 3 years - there is no deed, no action, within that ministry, worthy of being memorialized. HJ reasons: (i) -100 (ii) -100 (iii) -100

10-10-2011, 06:14 AM	#15
MCalavera Regular Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia Posts: 314	Those +100 posts are nuts and lacking in objectivity. :down:

10-10-2011, 07:39 AM	#16
Iskander Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 3,619	Jesus was turned into a god by pagan Greeks and pagan Romans. Both Greeks and Romans were in the habit of making gods from real humans; like doctor Frankenstein, the maker of living corpses. Jesus was a Jewish man and the Jewish people did not turn him into a god, nor have their Muslim cousins. Jesus was a real man is the most likely explanation.

10-10-2011, 07:40 AM	#17
Sheshbazzar Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: On the path of knowledge Posts: 8,889	Those +100 posts identify the Skeptics and Atheists not infected with any strain of the virulent ZJBD.:thumbs:

10-10-2011, 08:02 AM	#18
archibald Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Northern Ireland Posts: 1,305	Could I politely and respectfully ask everyone to bite their tongue and refrain from turning this particular thread into yet another debate? I know it's hard to resist. It is for me too. Cheers. Archibald.

10-10-2011, 12:59 PM	#19
jakejonesiv Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Atlanta Posts: 2,060	...

10-10-2011, 04:35 PM	#20
jules? Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: mind the time rift, cardiff, wales Posts: 645	+100 to -100 mythical 1/ lives on the north pole with elvish workers 2/ rides everywhere on one night with flying reindeer 3/ knows if you have been naughty or nice historical 1/ I think there really was someone once who was quite nice to kids and they made him a saint as opposed to those not nice who were made into priests. 2/ I saw him in town at the mall, and I know he's everywhere. Once saw him in a Tunisian hotel 3/ come on its Christmas, stop being such a scrooge.

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.