Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Vinnie · 08-24-2009, 01:53 PM

Under the ancient church of San Sebastiano, in the environs of the same city, one may now look upon numerous invocations to Saints Peter and Paul (graffiti) scratched on the walls of what was once a restroom for pilgrims in the first centuries of the church. These recent finds are of acknowledged significance fo the history of Christian origins. --Marucchi, Evidence for the Catacombs (or via: amazon.co.uk), Ch. 8 as cited by Garraghan, A Guide to Historical Method (or via: amazon.co.uk), pg 97.

Anyone know anything about this graffiti or when it dates to?

Vinnie

jakejonesiv · 08-24-2009, 02:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vinnie

Under the ancient church of San Sebastiano, in the environs of the same city, one may now look upon numerous invocations to Saints Peter and Paul (graffiti) scratched on the walls of what was once a restroom for pilgrims in the first centuries of the church. These recent finds are of acknowledged significance fo the history of Christian origins. --Marucchi, Evidence for the Catacombs, Ch. 8 as cited by Garraghan, A Guide to Historical Method, pg 97.

Anyone know anything about this graffiti or when it dates to?

Vinnie

Please let me recommend

Christ the Magician by William Storage and Laura Maish. This fascinating study surveys early Christianity through the lens of art, carved in stone. When one looks at the art, you see what the every day Christians were thinking.
Here is my favorite.

Jake

Vinnie · 08-24-2009, 03:05 PM

I got this far and stopped reading:

Quote:

Some theories involve multiple origins of a Christian myth - several famous sages, revolutionaries, apocalyptic prophets, philosophers or holy men being forged together at a time when one of the many sects of feuding Christians emerged victorious in the third and fourth centuries. Those concluding that a single man is at the roots of Christianity still do not all agree on the time of his famous deeds, but most agree on a period between 100 BC (BCE if you prefer) and 80 AD (CE). If this date range comes as a surprise, note that some of the earliest Christian writers seemed to have the same problem assigning a date - even some fairly late ones, such as Epiphanius of Salamis in the late 4th century. Since the gospels of the New Testament do place Jesus in a specific time and setting, one must consider the possibility that the versions of the books of the Bible available to these early Christians lacked information that is present in the version we read today. There is considerable evidence to support this possibility. The scholar Earl Doherty, for example, holds that Christianity began with a mythical Christ long before its followers "fleshed out" their ethereal savior by creating stories about his earthly dealings and interactions with famous persons.

Looking at the pictures....and ignoring the text...

jakejonesiv · 08-25-2009, 06:54 AM

Here is a study of a very important artifact, The Door Panels of Santa Sabina. This is purported to be the very earliest depiction of the crufixion. But a careful study if the carving reveals that it no such thing!

The first thing to notice is that there are no crosses in the carving. Jesus and the two smaller figures appear to be standing in front of three buildings with a brick background!

http://www.rome101.com/Christian/Sab..._1264WSDet.htm A close examination reveals that the panel has been recarved to look like later crucifixion imagery. See the close up of the nails in the hands.

It has been suggested that the scene depicts a passion play outside the city walls (Vinnie, cover your eyes here). A more likely possibility is that it is a resurrection scene of some sort, and the buildings behind represent tombs, as here.

Let’s turn our attention to the Sarcophagus of Junius Basus, upper tier, central scene. Christ is enthroned (like a Roman emperor) between Peter and Paul, to whom he is handing jurisdiction, above the figure of Caelus, the personification of the sky in Roman mythology. Dates to middle of the 4th century.

Quote:

Rome the Cosmopolis
By Catharine Edwards, Greg Woolf, page 89.
PETER, PAUL AND TH ROMAN SAINTS
Glancing back to the sarcophagus of Junius Basus, let us press the allusions to Peter and Paul. They are quite specific. In the central scene of the upper tier – the one Christological image which shows the resurrected Christ – the Lord id depicted handing over his jurisdiction to his Roman apostles (fig. 5). This scene is outside the normal confines of time and place – a mystical epiphany with Christ enthroned above the world as well as a key charter myth for the Roman Church, where variations of this iconography would be repeated in the next half century. .⁶⁸ But both the upper and lower tiers of the coffin also depict distinctly Roman scenes in the arrests of Peter and Paul, themes which allude (as does the arrest of Christ) beyond themselves – to the martyrdoms of the saints, their tombs in Rome and their cults. This implicit imaging of place in the sarcophagus alludes generally to Rome but also much more specifically to the sites where Peter and Paul were venerated. In the fourth century, these were not just the basilica and tomb complex recently constructed over ancient memoria on the Vatican (for St. Peter, where the Bassus sarcophagus was found) and in the Via Ostiense (for St. Paul), but also the famous joint monument of peter and Paul ‘ad catacumbas’ in what is now the Church of San Sebastiano on the Via Appia, whose excavated remains have yielded a wealth of graffito invocations to the saints.⁶⁹

⁶⁷ See Baldwin (1987) 147-57
⁶⁸ See Huckinson (1982) esp 3—63 for a survey of the visual material.
⁶⁹ The vastness of the literature on this complex issue is truly daunting. For summaries including discussions of the post-War excavations and bibliography, see O’Connor (1969) 116-206

youngalexander · 08-25-2009, 07:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vinnie

Under the ancient church of San Sebastiano, in the environs of the same city, one may now look upon numerous invocations to Saints Peter and Paul (graffiti) scratched on the walls of what was once a restroom for pilgrims in the first centuries of the church. These recent finds are of acknowledged significance fo the history of Christian origins. --Marucchi, Evidence for the Catacombs (or via: amazon.co.uk), Ch. 8 as cited by Garraghan, A Guide to Historical Method (or via: amazon.co.uk), pg 97.

Anyone know anything about this graffiti or when it dates to?

Vinnie

They date from mid 3rdC. See
Finney "The Invisible God", Ap 6.1 'Christians in the Piazzuola beneath San Sebastiano'

Snyder "Ante-Pacem" pg 180-189

Lampe "From Paul to Valentinus" pg 115 & 141

Susan2 · 08-25-2009, 08:06 PM

Quote:

It has been suggested that the scene depicts a passion play outside the city walls (Vinnie, cover your eyes here). A more likely possibility is that it is a resurrection scene of some sort, and the buildings behind represent tombs, as here.

Is that buddha in the picture? The forbidden city?

08-24-2009, 01:53 PM	#1
Vinnie Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Waterbury, Ct, Usa Posts: 6,523	Peter and Paul Graffiti under San Sebastion Church Under the ancient church of San Sebastiano, in the environs of the same city, one may now look upon numerous invocations to Saints Peter and Paul (graffiti) scratched on the walls of what was once a restroom for pilgrims in the first centuries of the church. These recent finds are of acknowledged significance fo the history of Christian origins. --Marucchi, Evidence for the Catacombs (or via: amazon.co.uk), Ch. 8 as cited by Garraghan, A Guide to Historical Method (or via: amazon.co.uk), pg 97. Anyone know anything about this graffiti or when it dates to? Vinnie

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