makerowner

Are you kidding? Just look at the history of the world, at the Creationism/ID movement, etc., etc. Do you see anything like that from followers of the Greek gods?

makerowner

What's that supposed to prove? I'm of the opinion that Jesus was probably a real person, but it's certainly not conclusively proven.

Sheshonq

What a stupid question. Nobody said stories had to be true, in order to be influential.

Because people draw their moral guidance - or lack of any moral guidance - from their religious stories. Even if those stories aren't true.

If that story excuses murder by their patriarchs - or by their deity - then the believers in that religion will borrow that excuse when they need it for their own uses.

Johnny Skeptic

Based upon what evidence? The Partition of Palestine is a self-fulfilled prophecy. Consider the following:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/..._of_Indep.html

Now are you really going to tell us that "Impelled by this historic and traditional attachment, Jews strove in every successive generation to re-establish themselves in their ancient homeland" is not an example of a self-filled prophecy?

Consider the following:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self_fulfilling_prophecy

Have you finally got it now? "A SELF-FULFILLING PROPHECY IS A PREDICTION THAT DIRECTLY OR INDIRECT CAUSES ITSELF TO BECOME TRUE."

Now let's get something straight: Are you saying that the Bible had nothing to do with causing the U.N. to grant control of Jerusalem to the Jews, and with causing the U.N. to grant the Jews control of a grossly disproportionate amount of land per capita, and that if Jewish and Palestinian history had been reversed, and Palestians had been persecuted by Hitler and other parties instead of Jews, the U.N. would have granted the Palestinians control of Jerusalem and a grossly disportionate amount of land per capita?

HERE IS THE BOTTOM LINE: If the Partition of Palestine was not a self-fulfilled prophecy, under my hypothecial scenario, the U.N. would have granted the Palestinians control of Jerusalem, and would have granted them a grossly disproportionate amount of land like the Jews got. You are well aware that that would not have been the case, and that the reason is because the Bible says that Jews will return to their homeland.

Of the 33 governments that voted in favor of the partition, 32 are predominantly Christian. The only non-Christian government that voted for the partition was Russia. At that time, Russia was joyfully getting lots of aid from the U.S. for rebuilding purposes, and was certainly not interested in contesting the wishes of the U.S. and 31 other countries. Any yet you would have people believe that the Bible does not have anything to do with the Partition of Palestine, and that no other religious books have anything to do with how people act.

All that it took to accomplish the partition of Palestine was desire and military power. The Allies won the Second World War. If the Axis powers had won the Second World War, Palestine would not have been partitioned. The most powerful animals, including humans, are always able to control the most land.

Genesis 17:8 says that God promised to give Abraham and his descendants, or if you wish, Issac and his descendants, ALL of the land of Canaan. Today, Jews do not occupy anywhere near all of the land of ancient Canaan. Following your same line of reasoning, if the Jews occupied one square mile of Palestine, that would be a fulfillment of prophecy.

If the Jews occupied parts of Palestine, but not Jerusalem, would you consider that to be a fulfillment of Bible prophecy? Please answer the question, or do you still insist on deciding whose questions get answered?

arnoldo

Was John the Baptist a real person? He apparently fulfilled prophecy,in part, just like Yeshua did.

makerowner

He probably was real. He's mentioned in Josephus, if I'm not mistaken. But his existence is not proof in any way of a Bible prophecy. First of all, we know next to nothing about his actual life. Most of the details we have come from late sources who want to portray him as the return of Elijah (the Gospels). And even if those sources are at all accurate about the details of his life, he obviously would have known about this prophecy and could very well have consciously tried to follow it, ie. it's a self-fulfilling prophecy.

sugarhitman

See I told you He disregards responses and repeat the same question. But I will answer this again for you. Before Israel was conquered By Babylon, did they have all the land NO. But guess what it was still referred to as a soverign nation...the Nation of Israel. After it was restored, did it have all the land? NO, but guess what Jesus called this diminished kingdom, ISRAEL. Besides the most important real-estate which is inseparable from Israel-Jerusalem- is controled by who (I cant hear youuu) ISRAEL (Which wasnt included in the bogus Partition Plan) Hey Johnny, Jack, Makerowner and to my good friend and brother in the Lord, Arnoldo.....Israel proves that God exist. :wave:

makerowner

Sure, and India proves that Vishnu exists, and Greece proves that Zeus exists, and Iraq proves that Marduk exists, and Japan proves that Amaterasu exists, etc. You see my point? Your 'logic' would prove the existence of every god who has any believers.

Johnny Skeptic

Message to arnoldo: In another thread at this forum, Robert Byers, who is a fundamentalist Christian, said that Jews have occupied all of Canaan. You said that the Jews have never occupied all of Canaan. Where did you get your information from?

Johnny Skeptic

Message to sugarhitman: What exactly has God protected Jews from for thousands of years, possibly from hurricanes, tornadoes, tsunamies, plagues, droughts, and famines? It would not make any sense for God to protect the Jews from other humans and refuse to protect them from hurricanes, tornadoes, tsunamies, plagues, droughts, and famines, but if the God of the Bible does not exist, then that explains this situation.

Why didn't God give all of the land of Canaan to Abraham, or Issac if you wish, like he promised to?

When you ask questions, you want skeptics to answer them, but when skeptics ask questions, you frequently refuse to answer the questions. Why is that? I asked you two simple questions, and I deserve polite answers to them that address the questions and do not attack my character. You are part of a fortunately small group of Christians at the IIDB who specialize in ad hominem character asassination. You frequently enjoy attacking the messenger instead of the message. That serves only to divert attention away from the issues. The undecided crowd are not interesting in your assessments of the character of skeptics. All that they care about is the issue. Paul opposed your judgmentalism. He said that Christians should not judge skeptics, that they should judge among themselves and leave judging skeptics to God. Your rudeness, judgmentalism, and frequent evasiveness have undermined any chance that you have to influence people. I don't suppose that you have read Jesus' commands to turn the other cheek, and to love and forgive you enemies, have you?

If I were an undecided person and came across some Christians like you, I would reject Christianity because I would not want any part of a religion that caused people to act like you act. Are you not aware that there are Christians at this forum who disapprove of your conduct?

If you want to trade insults with skeptics, why don't you go to a debate forum where anything goes and you can be as vicious and hostile as you want to? At the Theology Web, which is run by Christians, there is a forum that is calle 'The Locker Room.' Although you cannot say anything that you want to say there, lots of insults are allowed. Since you are not happy unless you are insulting people, why don't you particpate at 'The Locker Room' at the Theology Web?

You typically insist on which questions get answered. If you continue to refuse to answer my questions, I will not answer your questions. This is the Internet Infidels Discussion Board, and yet it is frequently difficult to get you to discuss issues.