Freethought & Rationalism Archive

FatherMithras · 03-22-2006, 01:33 PM

His body would have been thrown to the dogs, as it always was.

Doug Shaver · 03-22-2006, 10:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IonMic

But if his body went to heaven does that not imply heaven is a physical place?

If your point is that Christian dogma is logically incoherent, you won't get much argument around here.

If I were still a Christian, though, my response to your question would be: Not necessarily.

post tenebras lux · 03-23-2006, 01:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IonMic

Again this passage gets confusing when you apply christian logic.

No shit Sherlock.

IonMic, out of interest, what is the LDS take on this?

michael wellenberg · 03-23-2006, 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jakejonesiv

Hi IonMic,

The idea of Jesus' physical resurrection is an outgrowth of Mark's allegorical tale of the empty tomb. The other evangelists apparently did not realize that the tomb was empty for a reason; the resurrection and ascension were for Mark the same event. No eating of fish, no trouncing about with open wounds, just the simple "He has risen; He is not here;" Mark 16:6. He has gone forward into the
metaphorical Galilee whence he came. Mark 16:7. Mark's fictive account has leveraged the language of Enoch, he was not found because God
took him up. Gen. 5:24, Hebrews 11:25.

All of the "public appearances" (to use N.T. Wright's language) of the resurrected Jesus, including the interpolation into 1 Corinthians 15, stem from the reluctance of later writers to accept au_GMark's stark ending of his gospel.

Jake Jones

I cannot see an allegory in Mark´s account of the empty tomb, and I also fail to see why Galilee should be a metaphor. The tomb was empty, and the women related this experience to Peter in Galilee. His first thought was, then, that Jesus was alive, and he bolstered this conviction with the claim of a Christophany (cf. Luke 24:34). The earliest belief of Peter and the others was very physical and centered around a Messianic kingdom restored by the living Jesus (cf Acts 1:6) ; the Pauline pieces reflect a later stage.

Best regards !

Michael

FatherMithras · 03-23-2006, 05:37 PM

Quote:

I cannot see an allegory in Mark´s account of the empty tomb, and I also fail to see why Galilee should be a metaphor. The tomb was empty, and the women related this experience to Peter in Galilee. His first thought was, then, that Jesus was alive, and he bolstered this conviction with the claim of a Christophany (cf. Luke 24:34). The earliest belief of Peter and the others was very physical and centered around a Messianic kingdom restored by the living Jesus (cf Acts 1:6) ; the Pauline pieces reflect a later stage.

How do you know that when Paul was written first?

Joan of Bark · 03-23-2006, 06:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pervy

When the angels rolled aside the huge boulder that was blocking the entrance to the tomb, there was a bit of a logistical cock-up and they pushed rather than pulling.

Unfortunately, Jesus was helping to push from the other side at the same time, and the result was that the boulder rolled right over him flattening his body completely and squashing it into the tablecloth that he had laid out ready for his "welcome back" picnic with the Disciples.

The tablecloth has been kept to this day - and that is why when you look at it (the "Shroud of Turin" as it is now called) you will see that the image on it is a flat one, rather than the distorted image you would get if it were wrapped around a three dimensional person

Hey, that makes perfect sense! Thanks Pervy. (That's why I read this board).

michael wellenberg · 03-24-2006, 02:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FatherMithras

How do you know that when Paul was written first?

What I meant is that the combination of resurrection and ascension was not the very earliest notion. That it developed quite soon is right and is revealed by the pieces Paul includes that are mostly pre-Pauline.
Exactly the abrupt end of Mark´s gospel points to the earliest belief. For the Second Evangelist, Peter´s claim to have seen the risen Christ was false, there have never been any resurrection appearances, and thus he has the women remain silent. Mark´s end did not evoke resurrection appearance stories, it is a reaction to such stories already existing.
Mark has older sources like Paul had ; from those no conclusion is possible as to the timely relation between them.

Regards

Michael

IonMic · 03-26-2006, 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by post tenebras lux

IonMic, out of interest, what is the LDS take on this?

We believe that God and jesus are separate physical and spiritual personages. Jesus bodily ascended to heavenly father as his body was glorified and perfected after the resurection like heavenly fathers.

post tenebras lux · 03-27-2006, 01:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IonMic

We believe that God and jesus are separate physical and spiritual personages. Jesus bodily ascended to heavenly father as his body was glorified and perfected after the resurection like heavenly fathers.

But where is/was his heavenly father?

And how was his body moved from the surface of planet earth to be with his heavenly father?

Earlier you stated that you don't think god can break the laws of physics, but where did the body of Jesus go, and how did it get from here to there?

michael wellenberg · 03-27-2006, 02:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IonMic

Many christians believe god is immaterial or a purely spiritual entity or 'everything but nothing' and that god is jesus. This made me wonder if God truly is jesus and God has no form or no physical entity then when jesus ascended to heaven after his ressurection where do you all think his physical body went???

Since the starting point for the belief that Jesus did not remain with the dead and that therefore the "case Jesus" was not closed but could move on, was the tomb being empty, should one not consider the possibility that the women failed to find the right tomb, that it was not Jesus´tomb that was empty ? (Besides, I don´t believe that this is a matter with which Christian faith stands or falls.)
If it was in fact the right tomb, the possibility left is God´s having somehow transformed the physical body into a pneumatic status.

Regards

MW

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03-22-2006, 01:33 PM	#11
FatherMithras Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Florida Posts: 3,890	His body would have been thrown to the dogs, as it always was.

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