Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Johnny Skeptic · 01-22-2008, 10:36 AM

Consider the following post from another thread:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minimalist

New American Standard Bible

2 Samuel 7

1 Now then, speak thus to my servant David, 'The LORD of hosts has this to say: It was I who took you from the pasture and from the care of the flock to be commander of my people Israel.

9 I have been with you wherever you went, and I have destroyed all your enemies before you. And I will make you famous like the great ones of the earth.

10 I will fix a place for my people Israel; I will plant them so that they may dwell in their place without further disturbance. Neither shall the wicked continue to afflict them as they did of old,

11 since the time I first appointed judges over my people Israel. I will give you rest from all your enemies. The LORD also reveals to you that he will establish a house for you.

12 And when your time comes and you rest with your ancestors, I will raise up your heir after you, sprung from your loins, and I will make his kingdom firm.

13 It is he who shall build a house for my name. And I will make his royal throne firm forever.

14 I will be a father to him, and he shall be a son to me. And if he does wrong, I will correct him with the rod of men and with human chastisements;

15 but I will not withdraw my favor from him as I withdrew it from your predecessor Saul, whom I removed from my presence.

16 Your house and your kingdom shall endure forever before me; your throne shall stand firm forever.'"

Minimalist: I guess "forever" meant a couple of hundred years?

Regarding "I will fix a place for my people Israel; I will plant them so that they may dwell in their place without further disturbance. Neither shall the wicked continue to afflict them as they did of old," that is proof that the Partition of Palestine was not a fulfillment of Bible prophecy. There is no way that the Jews will ever be without further disturbance in this life, and those Scriptures refer to this life. Since Iran and who knows else are developing nuclear weapons, it is obvious that the Jews will never be without further disturbance in this life.

spin · 01-22-2008, 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

Message to arnoldo: If the Jews did not occupy Jerusalem, but occupied 70% of Palestine, would you call that a fulfilled Bible prophecy? If the Jews occupied one square mile of Palestine, would you call that a fulfilled prophecy? If not, why not?

Why do you believe that the Jews will not be kicked out of Palestine again? After all, the Philistines, Nebuchadnezzar, the Egyptians, and the Romans persecuted and killed many Jews of many occasions.

In the early part of the 2nd century, Trajan went to Palestine and killed 500,000 Jews. Why didn't God protect the Jews?

What exactly has God protected Jews from for thousands of years, possibly from hurricanes, tornadoes, tsunamies, plagues, droughts, and famines? It would not make any sense for God to protect the Jews from other humans and refuse to protect them from hurricanes, tornadoes, tsunamies, plagues, droughts, and famines, but if the God of the Bible does not exist, then that explains this situation.

If Jews were able to occupy all of the ancient land of Canaan, is it your position that God would stop killing them with hurricanes, tornadoes, tsunamies, plagues, droughts, and famines? If not, then God could not possibly care about the safety, health, and well-being of Jews. If God's only intention is proving that he is powerful, he certainly does not have to partition Palestine in order to do that. There would be much better ways for God to accomplish that, such as creating a new planet.

See I told you He disregards responses and repeat the same question. But I will answer this again for you. Before Israel was conquered By Babylon, did they have all the land NO. But guess what it was still referred to as a soverign nation...the Nation of Israel. After it was restored, did it have all the land? NO, but guess what Jesus called this diminished kingdom, ISRAEL. Besides the most important real-estate which is inseparable from Israel-Jerusalem- is controled by who (I cant hear youuu) ISRAEL (Which wasnt included in the bogus Partition Plan) Hey Johnny, Jack, Makerowner and to my good friend and brother in the Lord, Arnoldo.....Israel proves that God exist. :wave:

Confused as ever. Israel means all the twelve sons of Jacob there, sugarhitman. Not just one. It's not a case of "one out of twelve" is not bad. It's pathetic. Perhaps this god of yours will do better some time in the future. Perhaps he'll recreate the other eleven tribes. Then perhaps he'll extend the state to the Euphrates. But then you probably believe in the tooth fairy a well.

spin

Sheshonq · 01-22-2008, 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

Obviously, your convenient "God frequently uses men and nations for his own purposes" argument is fraudulent, and is exactly what would be the case if he does not exist.

Obviously you can revise historical fact to whatever suits your argument. Your position is Abraham, Moses and Daniel is a myth, right? Your position is also that bascially all Jewish prophecy is false and written after the fact, right?

Still tripping over yourself on burden of proof, aren't you?

He has stated no position; he doesn't have to take a stand here. YOU, on the other hand, need to prove that the prophecy is true. He doesn't have to prove that it's false.

Quote:

Why would the Jewish record, then fail to revise, the false promises of what God told Abraham when it obviously didn't come true according to revisionist history. Your choices are:
A. The Jews are stupid
B. I don't understand prophecy
C. God is a myth so it doesn't matter anyway.

You left out a bunch of choices - not surprising, since your knowledge is nonexistent and your only tactic is hysterics and strawmen:

D. At the time it was written down (c. 700 BC) people's knowledge of history was spotty and their mistakes weren't obvious -- that information only came later;

E. After being written down and published, people were unwilling / afraid to change it;

F. The evolution of the OT shows that the land promise changed from being an unconditional promise (in Genesis) to being a conditional one later on - thus allowing the ruling class of priests to influence the people by holding out a promise that they might be a great nation one day, and also explaining away the failure of the unconditional promise.

There are far more choices than the three you tried to present. Of course, understanding those other choices requires some effort - you clearly aren't capable of putting forth any.

Sheshonq · 01-22-2008, 11:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

Message to arnoldo: The partition of Palestine is a bona fide example of a self-fulfilled Bible prophecy..

Can you give any examples of bona fide self fulfilled prophecy from the ancient greek religion or any other religion for that matter?

Changing the subject again?

It isn't up to Johnny to provide counter-examples from other religions - especially when you haven't proven that the prophecies about Israel are true yet.

Sheshonq · 01-22-2008, 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Quote:

Originally Posted by makerowner

I'm not outraged by it, I'm just pointing out the obvious flaws in the story. No one, AKAIK, claims that the Greek gods are the arbiters of morality and that we should live our lives following their example. .

Yeah, monotheism is so intolerant.

If you look at the history of wars in the last 1500 years, a sizable chunk of them were started because of monotheistic religions.

But that's history - another one of your weak areas. :rolling:

arnoldo · 01-22-2008, 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Yes it's very convenient to be able to revise history to win any argument you have. Do you think John the Baptist, Herod, Pilate, etc., etc, is a myth also?

My word, are you not aware that many skeptics, and many Jews, believe that Jesus, John the Baptist, Herod, Pilate, Nebuchadnezzar, Paul, and many other Bible characters, were real people? The main issue is not whether or not those people lived, but what they did. .

Ok, there was a person two thousand years ago who crucified for claiming to be King of the Jews, this is totally relevant to this thread, Since you claim the issue is not whether the people lived but what they did how do you explain Herod's actions?

Quote:

After Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, during the time of King Herod, Magi from the east came to Jerusalem and asked, "Where is the one who has been born king of the Jews? We saw his star in the east and have come to worship him." When King Herod heard this he was disturbed, and all Jerusalem with him. When he had called together all the people's chief priests and teachers of the law, he asked them where the Christ was to be born."In Bethlehem in Judea," they replied, "for this is what the prophet has written:
" 'But you, Bethlehem, in the land of Judah,
are by no means least among the rulers of Judah;
for out of you will come a ruler
who will be the shepherd of my people Israel.'"

Is this just another example of a bona fide self fulfilled prophecy, a prophecy that was revised before/after the fact, just another outright lie?

makerowner · 01-22-2008, 11:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

My word, are you not aware that many skeptics, and many Jews, believe that Jesus, John the Baptist, Herod, Pilate, Nebuchadnezzar, Paul, and many other Bible characters, were real people? The main issue is not whether or not those people lived, but what they did. .

Ok, there was a person two thousand years ago who crucified for claiming to be King of the Jews, this is totally relevant to this thread, Since you claim the issue is not whether the people lived but what they did how do you explain Herod's actions?

Quote:

After Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, during the time of King Herod, Magi from the east came to Jerusalem and asked, "Where is the one who has been born king of the Jews? We saw his star in the east and have come to worship him." When King Herod heard this he was disturbed, and all Jerusalem with him. When he had called together all the people's chief priests and teachers of the law, he asked them where the Christ was to be born."In Bethlehem in Judea," they replied, "for this is what the prophet has written:
" 'But you, Bethlehem, in the land of Judah,
are by no means least among the rulers of Judah;
for out of you will come a ruler
who will be the shepherd of my people Israel.'"

Is this just another example of a bona fide self fulfilled prophecy, a prophecy that was revised before/after the fact, just another outright lie?

It's a combination of the lie and the self-fulfilled prophecy. Luke knew of this prophecy when he wrote his gospel and invented the census to make Jesus' life seem to fit it. There is no other reference to this census, and the idea of a census making you return to the land of your ancestors is ridiculous.

Sheshonq · 01-22-2008, 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Is this just another example of a bona fide self fulfilled prophecy, a prophecy that was revised before/after the fact, just another outright lie?

Let me guess: another attempt to change the topic from your claims about Israel and prophecy?

Is it fundie attention deficit disorder?
Or just you wiggling and squirming, because you know you can't support your claims?

Why choose? It's probably both! :rolling:

arnoldo · 01-22-2008, 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshonq

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Is this just another example of a bona fide self fulfilled prophecy, a prophecy that was revised before/after the fact, just another outright lie?

Let me guess: another attempt to change the topic from your claims about Israel and prophecy?

Is it fundie attention deficit disorder?
Or just you wiggling and squirming, because you know you can't support your claims?

Why choose? It's probably both! :rolling:

It's not a change of subject, Yeshua is the King of Israel. Oh, here's some info on King Herod's slaughter of the innocents which probably proves to you that God kills babies.

Quote:

Raymond Brown’s Birth of the Messiah, who says this:
Despite the obviously storytelling atmosphere, those interested in establishing the historicity of the event have calculated how many children there would have been in a village like Bethlehem and its surroundings. Because of the high infant morality rate, we are told that if the total population was one thousand, with an annual birthrate of thirty, the male children under two years of age would scarcely have numbered more than twenty.
The Birth of the Messiah, page 204-05.

arnoldo · 01-22-2008, 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by makerowner

It's a combination of the lie and the self-fulfilled prophecy.

Wow, these Jews have been writing a book of lies for thousands of years and people still believe this work of fiction, amazing!

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