Freethought & Rationalism Archive

wade-w · 10-13-2003, 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by lunachick
Oh, I agree that they would understand a naval metaphor. But with regard to Jerusalem, surely the camel translation is strongest. Even if the goods came initially by sea, they would have been carried to Jerusalem by camel.

But why does the metaphor have to refer to Jerusalem in some manner?

[meaningless nitpick]
And on the subject of "rope" in a nautical context, the proper term is not rope, but line.
[/meaningless nitpick]

Toto · 10-13-2003, 04:10 PM

This page seems to contain every possible speculation about the terms, although it is very disorganized, and starts off by claiming incorrectly that the Biblical verse is a translation error.

There was no gate in Jerusalem known as the Eye of the Needle - that was just a later story to try to make sense of the saying (or see postcards, take your pick). So forget all that.

On the other hand, it does appear that the word for camel (gamlo) was the same as the word for rope - bacause ropes were typically made of camel hair. The words in Greek are very similar - kamilos vs. kamelos.

This confusion is used as evidence that the saying was originally in Aramaic, where trying to thread a needle with a rope makes some sense. But not every scholar agrees that this is an indication that the Bible was originally in Aramaic.

offa · 10-13-2003, 05:02 PM

The system of grades underlay all aspects of the hierarchy.
When higher education was introduced into the monasteries and later
celibate communities, each year's progress brought the students to
be equal to one of the positions in the hierarchy, and was called by
the corresponding letter. At graduation, a student was considered
equal to a Raphael or to a letter. At graduation, a student could
be considered equal to a Raphael or to a Nazirite archbishop (3), so
was awarded a Qof. As Qof also meant "eye of a needle", he
"went through the eye of a needle" when he graduated. The saying in
Mark 10:25 about a "camel going through the eye of a needle" is
referring to the graduation of a celibate, as there were four main
classes denoted by the first four letters of the alphabet (priests
Aleph; levites Beth, celibates Gimel; married Daleth)
and "Gimel" also meant "camel".
(ref ISBN 0-06-067782-1, p. 371)

Biff the unclean · 10-13-2003, 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by judge
No this is actually true.

This is another example of a mistranslation from Aramaic to greek.

That's good, except the Bible was written in Greek and translated into Aramaic not the other way around

diana · 10-13-2003, 05:39 PM

Considering what Toto just said, does anyone have any evidence that a gate in Jerusalem was called "The Eye of the Needle" in the 1st C.?

I've not ever seen any, and I'm curious.

d

Madkins007 · 10-13-2003, 05:59 PM

I have also been told that the word could be translated in several ways, and that 'camel' was the selected word later on.

However, I have also been told that there is a common Arabic saying about a rope through the eye of a needle referring to an impossible thing.

I don't have a lot of Arabic friends, but the one I do have had heard this from his Arabic parents- although he was not sure about it.

So- IS this or something like it a common saying in the Middle East? It seems to me that if it IS, then that pretty much settles this.

Infidelettante · 10-13-2003, 06:30 PM

If Jesus had ties to the Qumran community the phrase may mean just what it says. No rich person can enter heaven. One of the descriptive phrases they used to define themselves against the backdrop of the upper classes who accepted and benefited from the Roman occupation was ~the poor ones~. Only the poor could enter the Kingdom. Such connections with Qumran phraseology is also found in the Lords prayer.

JT

sakrilege · 10-14-2003, 03:03 AM

This site discusses the issue (in very large font). It makes the point that this isn't the only exaggeration of jesus.

Quote:

What we have instead then, I believe, is a beautiful Hebrew hyperbole, as in the tree sticking out of one's eye whilst one is removing a speck in another's eye! Indeed, Jewish Talmudic literature uses a similar aphorism about an elephant passing through the eye of a needle as a figure of speech implying the unlikely or impossible:
"They do not show a man a palm tree of gold, nor an elephant going through the eye of a needle."

Mat 7:3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

This may have just been part of jesus's speaking style. What other phrases are there that can be taken as hyperbole?

Madkins007 · 10-14-2003, 07:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sakrilege
This site discusses the issue (in very large font). It makes the point that this isn't the only exaggeration of jesus.
Mat 7:3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

This may have just been part of jesus's speaking style. What other phrases are there that can be taken as hyperbole?

There are also authors that argue (and in my mind rather successfully) that these are examples of humor- funny exagerations, vivid images, etc. it's been a long time since reading that, so I don't recall any other specific examples.

Stephen T-B · 10-15-2003, 06:35 AM

Whether its a ship�s rope or a camel going through the eye of a needle, or a camel going through a very narrow gate, it seems fairly obvious that �Jesus� or the preachers who inspired the Jesus myth, didn�t think much of the rich.
This seems to be an element of Christ�s teachings which Christians have paid remarkably little heed to. In fact, getting rich has often been regarded as a by-product of living an upright Christian life; and I bet the the extremely-rich US evangelists don�t worry about their wealth coming between them and the Pearly Gates.

Another case of the �Pick-n-mix� which runs through all Christian history?

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10-13-2003, 04:10 PM	#22
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	This page seems to contain every possible speculation about the terms, although it is very disorganized, and starts off by claiming incorrectly that the Biblical verse is a translation error. There was no gate in Jerusalem known as the Eye of the Needle - that was just a later story to try to make sense of the saying (or see postcards, take your pick). So forget all that. On the other hand, it does appear that the word for camel (gamlo) was the same as the word for rope - bacause ropes were typically made of camel hair. The words in Greek are very similar - kamilos vs. kamelos. This confusion is used as evidence that the saying was originally in Aramaic, where trying to thread a needle with a rope makes some sense. But not every scholar agrees that this is an indication that the Bible was originally in Aramaic.

10-13-2003, 05:02 PM	#23
offa Regular Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Monroeville, Ohio, USA Posts: 440	The system of grades underlay all aspects of the hierarchy. When higher education was introduced into the monasteries and later celibate communities, each year's progress brought the students to be equal to one of the positions in the hierarchy, and was called by the corresponding letter. At graduation, a student was considered equal to a Raphael or to a letter. At graduation, a student could be considered equal to a Raphael or to a Nazirite archbishop (3), so was awarded a Qof. As Qof also meant "eye of a needle", he "went through the eye of a needle" when he graduated. The saying in Mark 10:25 about a "camel going through the eye of a needle" is referring to the graduation of a celibate, as there were four main classes denoted by the first four letters of the alphabet (priests Aleph; levites Beth, celibates Gimel; married Daleth) and "Gimel" also meant "camel". (ref ISBN 0-06-067782-1, p. 371)

10-13-2003, 05:39 PM	#25
diana Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Colorado Springs Posts: 6,471	Considering what Toto just said, does anyone have any evidence that a gate in Jerusalem was called "The Eye of the Needle" in the 1st C.? I've not ever seen any, and I'm curious. d

10-13-2003, 05:59 PM	#26
Madkins007 Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Nebraska Posts: 591	I have also been told that the word could be translated in several ways, and that 'camel' was the selected word later on. However, I have also been told that there is a common Arabic saying about a rope through the eye of a needle referring to an impossible thing. I don't have a lot of Arabic friends, but the one I do have had heard this from his Arabic parents- although he was not sure about it. So- IS this or something like it a common saying in the Middle East? It seems to me that if it IS, then that pretty much settles this.

10-13-2003, 06:30 PM	#27
Infidelettante Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: The Deep South Posts: 889	If Jesus had ties to the Qumran community the phrase may mean just what it says. No rich person can enter heaven. One of the descriptive phrases they used to define themselves against the backdrop of the upper classes who accepted and benefited from the Roman occupation was ~the poor ones~. Only the poor could enter the Kingdom. Such connections with Qumran phraseology is also found in the Lords prayer. JT

10-15-2003, 06:35 AM	#30
Stephen T-B Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Leeds, UK Posts: 5,878	Whether its a ship�s rope or a camel going through the eye of a needle, or a camel going through a very narrow gate, it seems fairly obvious that �Jesus� or the preachers who inspired the Jesus myth, didn�t think much of the rich. This seems to be an element of Christ�s teachings which Christians have paid remarkably little heed to. In fact, getting rich has often been regarded as a by-product of living an upright Christian life; and I bet the the extremely-rich US evangelists don�t worry about their wealth coming between them and the Pearly Gates. Another case of the �Pick-n-mix� which runs through all Christian history?

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