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Old 07-10-2009, 11:33 AM   #11
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Also, his reference to 20 books in the fifth reference indicates that he did not know that "Antiquities" itself was a work in 20 books.
IMO any reference to the 20 books of Antiquities by a patristic author, without direct evidence that they'd read it, suggests only that they knew offhandedly there was a work by Josephus with 20 books in it. This could have been learned simply by reading other patristic authors who made note of it.

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I am wondering if it could be a coincidence only that the Slavonic Josephus has the Testimonium in the Jewish Wars and Agapius apparently places it there too.
I am wondering that too, though I don't think he betrays any notice of any unique features of the SJ.

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Apparently there is a Jewish War manuscript which contains the TF. (http://enc.slider.com/Enc/Testimonium_Flavianum). Does anybody know which one it is?
I believe it's the Vossianus gr. F 72, as noted on Roger's page:

http://www.tertullian.org/rpearse/ma...sephus_all.htm

There's a facsimile of it in Eisler.
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Old 07-10-2009, 12:19 PM   #12
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Hey guys, Agapius goes into a lot of detail about intentional corruption of the LXX by Jewish scholars in order to deny the messiahship of Jesus. He asserts that the same corruption found its way into Syriac texts and that the faithful translations of the LXX were hidden away only to be recovered by Constantine years later.
Doesn't he just. I got unbelievably tired of translating it again and again.

What he says is that the Syriac Torah was translated from the Hebrew Torah, and not the true Torah of the LXX, and that Annas and Caiaphas did the deed in the time of Christ for nefarious reasons.

I'm not sure that we need spend time on the allegation, but it is interesting that this view was going around in his time.
Thanks Roger.

I particularly like that Constantine was the hero for using his "muscle" to uncover the true texts that had been hidden away.

By Hebrew Torah you are talking about what is preserved in the extant Masoretic texts? I'm having trouble understanding the parallel lineages of manuscripts between the translation of the LXX and the 7th century Masoretes. There seem to be a wide range of opinions. I'm still reading on the topic but comments are welcome. Agapius was writing in the 10th century so I'm not sure his opinions are valid historically other than to elucidate what was generally accepted in the 10th century.
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Old 07-10-2009, 09:40 PM   #13
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Forgot to add that I believe there are other manuscripts that attach the TF to BJ--Eisler mentions them, and I'm pretty sure they're on Pearse's list. I seem to recall three of them. The difference is that they generally tack it on to the end (one may be at the beginning)--but the Vossianus places it in the middle of Book II. Don't get too excited, though--it's clearly been inserted, and also contains a quotation from Discourse to the Greeks Concerning Hades. Eisler has his usual wild theories as to why. (Its location also has nothing to do with the location of the Slavonic Tesimonium, BTW.)
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Old 07-10-2009, 10:52 PM   #14
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Doesn't he just. I got unbelievably tired of translating it again and again.

What he says is that the Syriac Torah was translated from the Hebrew Torah, and not the true Torah of the LXX, and that Annas and Caiaphas did the deed in the time of Christ for nefarious reasons.

I'm not sure that we need spend time on the allegation, but it is interesting that this view was going around in his time.
By Hebrew Torah you are talking about ...
Not me. Those are the words Agapius uses.

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...what is preserved in the extant Masoretic texts?
I don't think he goes past the idea of "this is what the Jews are using". NB: he's writing in the 10th century, which I vaguely think is the date of our earliest Masoretic mss? (not my field).

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Agapius was writing in the 10th century so I'm not sure his opinions are valid historically other than to elucidate what was generally accepted in the 10th century.
We'd need to see more than one author to conclude what was generally accepted, of course.
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Old 07-10-2009, 10:55 PM   #15
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Also, his reference to 20 books in the fifth reference indicates that he did not know that "Antiquities" itself was a work in 20 books.
IMO any reference to the 20 books of Antiquities by a patristic author, without direct evidence that they'd read it, suggests only that they knew offhandedly there was a work by Josephus with 20 books in it. This could have been learned simply by reading other patristic authors who made note of it.
Good point. Antiquities may have been a rare work even in Greek, judging from the number of people quoting from it.

We must also remember Agapius is writing in Arabic. He is using Syriac sources, and knows Syriac. Not sure whether he knows Greek.
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Old 07-11-2009, 09:35 AM   #16
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Default The Variability of Text

Hi The Cave,

I think the insertion of the TF in different manuscripts of Josephus' Wars, plus a version being found in Slavonic Josephus' account of the Wars, plus the reference to it being in Wars by Agapius is significant. It shows that the TF was not only being changed incidentally in terms of words, but even location was variable.

We may look at variability at different textual levels:

1. Words.
2. Incidents/Event: Words generally describe incidents or events
3. Tales: Incidents are put together to tell a tale
4. Story: Tales are put together to tell a story
5. Book: Stories are put together to create a book
6. Collection of Books: Books are put together to create a collection

The TF is a tale of Jesus. It seems to be variable on all six levels from the time it is first mentioned by Eusebius circa 315 to the time of Agapius in the 10th century. While words are almost always variable, and incidents are occasionally variable, it is not the usual case for a story to vary on all these levels.

Warmly,

Philosopher Jay

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Forgot to add that I believe there are other manuscripts that attach the TF to BJ--Eisler mentions them, and I'm pretty sure they're on Pearse's list. I seem to recall three of them. The difference is that they generally tack it on to the end (one may be at the beginning)--but the Vossianus places it in the middle of Book II. Don't get too excited, though--it's clearly been inserted, and also contains a quotation from Discourse to the Greeks Concerning Hades. Eisler has his usual wild theories as to why. (Its location also has nothing to do with the location of the Slavonic Tesimonium, BTW.)
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Old 07-11-2009, 02:56 PM   #17
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Hi Ben,

Thanks for this. It is quite helpful.

Note that Agapius refers to Josephus five times:

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1. The length of the ark was three hundred cubits, its width fifty cubits and its height thirty cubits; the ark had three levels. Josephus the Jew, the scholar, who wrote about the destruction of Jerusalem after the Ascension of the Messiah Our Lord, affirms that the planks of the ark were in the town of Afamea

2. Josephus the Hebrew spoke of this also in his books which he wrote about the wars of the Jews:

3. It is said that those who perished in the battles in Jerusalem and died of hunger during the invasion of Vespasian and the siege of that city for 3 years were counted; and the number of dead was about 1,200,000; 110,000 were made prisoners, according to what Josephus says.

4. Josephus the Jew tells in his book on the destruction of Jerusalem that before the ruin of this town, there appeared signs and prodigies, various and extraordinary, which presaged the destruction.

5. When the Romans possessed themselves of Jerusalem, -- Josephus had warned his countrymen before the destruction of Jerusalem and said to them, "Obey the Romans and submit to their emperors and you will praise yourselves for the result of your conduct." -- but they treated him with contempt and insulted him so much that they struck him several times and stoned him. He came to the Romans who, having made him prisoner, obliged him to remain at the court of the emperor. He composed 20 books on the organization of the Jews, their emigration, their High Priests, the wars against the Romans and the siege of Jerusalem. Agrippa wrote 62 letters in which he praised the books of Josephus and the understanding and depth of his knowledge. After his death, the Romans erected a statue of him at Rome in his honour.
This seems to give us a clue as to the correct translation. If we assume that "War of the Jews" is the correct translation, then we have five cases that Agapius refers to or quotes from the work "War of the Jews".

Translating it as "Governance" a reference to Antiquities would create an anomaly.
Quoting three times from Wars and twice from Antiquities is not an anomaly. It is a statistic.

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Also, his reference to 20 books in the fifth reference indicates that he did not know that "Antiquities" itself was a work in 20 books.
This does not make any sense to me. Can you explain it, please? Agapius says that Josephus wrote 20 books on the topics he mentions (organization of the Jews, their emigration, their high priests, the wars against the Romans and the siege of Jerusalem); all those topics are present in the Antiquities. He is obviously aware of a work by Josephus in 20 books that contained those topics; Antiquities fits the bill.

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I think that we have to assume that the translator, Alexander Vasiliev, saw the same term used for "Wars of the Jews" in the fifth Josephus reference and therefore properly did the same translation in the second reference. Otherwise, he would have translated it as "Organization of the Jews" which he mentions in the fifth reference.
Sorry, I am not following. What word, exactly, are you assuming is the same between the second and the fifth reference? (According to the summary of Pines that I gave you, we already know which word designating the Josephan work in question appears in the second reference and what word appears in the fifth. Unless you are saying that Pines is mistaken about the actual words used in the Arabic text.)

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I am wondering if it could be a coincidence only that the Slavonic Josephus has the Testimonium in the Jewish Wars and Agapius apparently places it there too.
Could it also be a coincidence that most other texts of Josephus places the Testimonium in the Antiquities and Agapius apparently places it there too? If Agapius meant the Wars, then he is agreeing with the Slavonic Josephus. If he meant the Antiquities, then he is agreeing with the rest of the witnesses to the text of Josephus. This is, at best, a wash for your overall point.

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Apparently there is a Jewish War manuscript which contains the TF. (http://enc.slider.com/Enc/Testimonium_Flavianum). Does anybody know which one it is?
That is a good question, and one I do not know the answer to.

Ben.
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Old 07-11-2009, 06:26 PM   #18
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That would be "Codex Vossianus" per
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus_on_Jesus

Since the Vossian library contained a large number of codices, I found a more precise reference, "Codex Vossianus Graec.72 Olim Petavianus" housed at the Univeristy Libary in Leyden (Zindler) at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Talk:Josephus_on_Jesus

DCH

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Apparently there is a Jewish War manuscript which contains the TF. (http://enc.slider.com/Enc/Testimonium_Flavianum). Does anybody know which one it is?
That is a good question, and one I do not know the answer to.

Ben.
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Old 07-11-2009, 07:00 PM   #19
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That would be "Codex Vossianus" per
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus_on_Jesus

Since the Vossian library contained a large number of codices, I found a more precise reference, "Codex Vossianus Graec.72 Olim Petavianus" housed at the Univeristy Libary in Leyden (Zindler) at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Talk:Josephus_on_Jesus

DCH
As noted by me also in post #11 above Again, see Roger Pearse's "Josephus: All the Manuscripts" page for more details (and the facsimile in Eisler)

The fifth reference seems to be confused, because Josephus doesn't treat the siege in Antiquities, of course, so this looks like a derivative reference. However, the first I assume comes from Antiquities, doesn't it? Still, being only one reference, Agapius could have gotten it from someone else.
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Old 07-11-2009, 07:47 PM   #20
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So you did! <g>

Yeah, I thought about looking in Eisler but didn't feel like wading through the gazillion photocopied books in my library to find it.

DCH

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That would be "Codex Vossianus" per
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus_on_Jesus

Since the Vossian library contained a large number of codices, I found a more precise reference, "Codex Vossianus Graec.72 Olim Petavianus" housed at the Univeristy Libary in Leyden (Zindler) at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Talk:Josephus_on_Jesus

DCH
As noted by me also in post #11 above Again, see Roger Pearse's "Josephus: All the Manuscripts" page for more details (and the facsimile in Eisler)

The fifth reference seems to be confused, because Josephus doesn't treat the siege in Antiquities, of course, so this looks like a derivative reference. However, the first I assume comes from Antiquities, doesn't it? Still, being only one reference, Agapius could have gotten it from someone else.
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