Roger Pearse

A common supposed quotation came my way in usenet, and I have been spurred to try to track it down. I haven't succeeded -- can anyone give a real source?

This quote is attributed to Mithras: "He who will not eat of my body and drink of my blood, so that he will be made one with me and I with him, the same shall not know salvation."

The source may be the "Zardusht-nama" (Book of Zoroaster), a 13th century text.

Here are the links that I found, in sequence of what leads to what:

The quote: http://www.farvardyn.com/mithras4.php

Cumont, Mithras, Zardusht (the page is mostly full of nonsense, tho)
http://www.cais-soas.com/CAIS/Religi...sm/m_m/pt5.htm

About the Zardust-nama:
http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/Zoroaster

(or Zartushtnamah):
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02151b.htm

This gives us:
http://www.avesta.org/dhalla/history6.htm

"Other works in Persian. Besides the Rivayats, several works, both in prose and in verse, have reached us. The most important of these is the Zartusht Namah or Book of Zartusht composed in verse by Zartusht Bahram Pazdu in the thirteenth [460] century.2 The account of the life of the prophet is based upon the Pahlavi works.

[2] West, GIrPh. 2.122, 123; Eastwick, tr. in English in Wilson's Parsi Religion, p. 477-522; Rosenberg, Le Livre de Zoroaster.

Wilson's Parsi Religion (online complete):
http://books.google.com/books?id=3Da...85&dq=3DWilson

I have examined the translation of the Zartusht-Namah in Wilson, but I couldn't see the lines in question. References to 'Meher' are being treated as 'Mithra'.

There seems to be some question of whether this text is faintly genuine, even as what it purports to be.

The only source that I can find for the quote is Vermaseren, "Mithras: the secret god". I have been to look at this. Infuriatingly, it gives no reference for the statement, beyond "Cumont".

I've also had a look at Cumont's two volume compendium of all Mithraic literature, "Textes et Monuments", and it contains no reference in the texts or in the index to the Zardusht or any Persian literature.

I think that Vermaseren wouldn't have made it up; but I don't quite know how to proceed.

Incidentally do you notice that, of all those who have freely circulated this 'quote', evidently none of them have verified it? Isn't that depressing?

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Minimalist

I found this using Google. References that quote to an author named Godwin.

http://www.class.uidaho.edu/ngier/307/archetype.htm

Perhaps there is a reference in that book? I also noted a claim of an inscription to this effect but not specifically identified.

I have the same problem with the gospels, so, I surely sympathize.

pkropotkin

Well on a quick look it seems that some are actually saying this quote is supposedly from Zarathushtra, not Mithra, and supposedly in a medieval Persian work referenced by Cumont, which could be the text you referenced, though as you say it doesn't seem to be in Cumont. It's always possible that the some one did a fairly "creative" translation of the Persian as well.

Roger Pearse

Zartusht = Zoroaster = Zarathustra. The Zardust-Nama = "book of Zoroaster".

But there is an English translation of this -- or one of these -- online at the link given, and it doesn't seem to be there.

If we could find where Cumont references this 'medieval Persian work', that would be a step forward.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Roger Pearse

It would be interesting if anyone has access to Godwin's Mystery Religions in the Ancient World. However I suspect he merely uses Vermaseren.

I have just found this archive, tho, where Toto quotes this site to the effect that:

They (Freke and Gandy) reference us again to Godwin's Mystery Religions in the Ancient World (p. 28), for the answers. The problem is that Godwin says that the reference is from a "Persian Mithraic text," but curiously leaves out any and all documentation such as the date of the text or where it was found! Vermaseren (a student of Cumont's) notes that the source of this saying is a medieval text and the source is Zarathustra, not Mithra. (M.J. Vermaseren, Mithras the Secret God, p. 103)

although the site has misunderstood Vermaseren. But that suggests that Godwin has no reference.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Roger Pearse

It looks as if the reason that the 'quote' gets cited is that Freke and Gandy use it, offering Godwin as their reference, who offers no reference? Anyone able to confirm these?

Smullyan-esque

Well, since M.J. Vermaseren quotes it in "Mithras: the secret god", I would assume that it is a valid quote. M.J. Vermaseren is a well known historian, and we all know that well known historians (such as Josephus) typically report the truth as they know it.

I mean, if we start doubting the accuracy of Vermaseren, then we might as well start doubting the accuracy of Josephus (Or even the historical value of Scripture!) and then where would we be? We'd have no more reason to believe in things like the long lives of the patriarchs or the flood, and we'd be forced to rely on the dull tools of mere physical evidence! ::horror::

Ratel

Yah know, all this Mithras talk makes me wonder: if there was any pagan influence on 1st century Christianity at all, rather than solely a reinterpretation of Jewish material, if Perseus was more a contributor than Mithras, who we don't know anything about. Perseus was worshipped in Tarsus along with Mithra(s?) and of all the ancient heroes he was the one genuinely born of a virgin. I don't know, I'm tired and need to think about this more.

Roger Pearse

Can we avoid derails, please? -- I'd like factual info on the OP only, if we can manage that.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Ratel

Maybe these people can track down an original of that text for you, if they can manage it:

http://www.zoroastrian.org/