Vorkosigan

I was wondering why I didn't notice number six was sextus -- because Williamson translates it as "Xystus."

Derec

Speaking of the "and it continued until this day" trope, how about this famous passage?

Some scholars see the "500 brethren" bit as an interpolation. Could it be ascribed to Eusebius as well?

UMoC

andrewcriddle

I think there is less of a connection between Hegesippus and
Pausanius than has been suggested

Ignoring the claim that Antinous was a slave of Hadrian which is probably
slander there are several true peices of information here which are not
found in Pausanius.

The games for Antinous are called ANTINOEIOS which probably refers to the
lotus wreaths given to the victors at the games in Egypt particularly at
Antinoopolis.
We are told that Hadrian actually built Antinoopolis to honour Antinous and
didn't just rename an already existing city after him.
We are told that Hadrian appointed oracle priests (prophets) for Antinous.
This is true for Antinoopolis (see Origen Contra Celsum bk 3 ch 36) and
probably some other places but apparently not at Mantineia. (The initiation
ceremonies for Antinous at Antinoopolis Mantineia and many other places are
quite different from oracle priests.)

In conclusion the account of Pausanius is an accurate account of the cult of
Antinous at Mantineia with some reference to the situation in the Empire as
a whole. The account of Hegesippus, on the other hand is a (mostly)
accurate accuont of the cult as it was practiced at Antinoopolis. The
resemblances of the two accounts is due to the broad similarities of the cult
of Antinous throughout the Roman Empire.

Andrew Criddle

Vorkosigan

Hi Andrew! Welcome aboard.

Here are some other references to Antinous for the web page I am making on this issue. Only the Pausanius quote contains all the information found in the H quote (except for the 'slave" remark). Lengthwise it is very close, once you eliminate the extraneous comments about Maniteia.

Pausanius does not say "renamed' but only 'named.'

Pausanius uses "mystic rites" and H "prophets" although both may well be translation variations. We need to see the Greek.

********
Other information about Antinous, who was the object of fury for
many a Church father, including later writers like Eusebius,
Athanasius, and Jerome:

Justin Martyr First Apology, 29.

And it is not out of place, we think, to mention here Antinous,
who was alive but lately, and whom all were prompt, through
fear, to worship as a god, though they knew both who he was
and what was his origin.

Athenogoras A Plea for Christians, Chapter XXX (to Marcus
Aurelius)

"Thus Antinous, through the benevolence of your ancestors
towards their subjects, came to be regarded as a god. But
those who came after adopted the worship without
examination."

Clement of Alexandria, Exhortation to the Greeks

"Another new deity was added to the number with great
religious pomp in Egypt, and was near being so in Greece by
the king of the Romans, who deified Antinous, whom he loved
as Zeus loved Ganymede, and whose beauty was of a very
rare order: for lust is not easily restrained, destitute as it is of
fear; and men now observe the sacred nights of Antinous, the
shameful character of which the lover who spent them with him
knew well. Why reckon him among the gods, who is honoured
on account of uncleanness? And why do you command him to
be lamented as a son? And why should you enlarge on his
beauty? Beauty blighted by vice is loathsome. Do not play the
tyrant, O man, over beauty, nor offer foul insult to youth in its
bloom. Keep beauty pure, that it may be truly fair. Be king over
beauty, not its tyrant. Remain free, and then I shall
acknowledge thy beauty, because thou hast kept its image
pure: then will I worship that true beauty which is the archetype
of all who are beautiful. Now the grave of the debauched boy
is the temple and town of Antinous. For just as temples are
held in reverence, so also are sepulchres, and pyramids, and
mausoleums, and labyrinths, which are temples of the dead,
as the others are sepulchres of the gods."

Tertullian Against Marcion, Book I

"Although man's littleness has been able, according to
experiments all over the world, more easily to fashion for itself
gods, than to follow the true God whom men now understand
by nature. As for the rest, if man shall be thus able to devise a
god,--as Romulus did Consus, and Tatius Cloacina, and
Hostilius Fear, and Metellus Alburnus, and a certain authority
some time since Antinous,--the same accomplishment may be
allowed to others."

Origen Contra Celsus, Book III Chapter XXXVI

"But as he next introduces the case of the favourite of Adrian (I
refer to the accounts regarding the youth Antinous, and the
honours paid him by the inhabitants of the city of Antinous in
Egypt), and imagines that the honour paid to him falls little
short of that which we render to Jesus, let us show in what a
spirit of hostility this statement is made. For what is there in
common between a life lived among the favourites of Adrian,
by one who did not abstain even from unnatural lusts, and that
of the venerable Jesus, against whom even they who brought
countless other charges, and who told so many falsehoods,
were not able to allege that He manifested, even in the
slightest degree, any tendency to what was licentious? Nay,
further, if one were to investigate, in a spirit of truth and
impartiality, the stories relating to Antinous, he would find that it
was due to the magical arts and rites of the Egyptians that
there was even the appearance of his performing anything
(marvellous) in the city which bears his name, and that too only
after his decease,--an effect which is said to have been
produced in other temples by the Egyptians, and those who
are skilled in the arts which they practise. For they set up in
certain places demons claiming prophetic or healing power,
and which frequently torture those who seem to have
committed any mistake about ordinary kinds of food, or about
touching the dead body of a man, that they may have the
appearance of alarming the uneducated multitude. Of this
nature is the being that is considered to be a god in
Antinoopolis in Egypt, whose (reputed) virtues are the lying
inventions of some who live by the gain derived therefrom;
while others, deceived by the demon placed there, and others
again convicted by a weak conscience, actually think that they
are paying a divine penalty inflicted by Antinous. Of such a
nature also are the mysteries which they perform, and the
seeming predictions which they utter."

Chapter XXXVII

"The Egyptians, then, having been taught to worship Antinous,
will, if you compare him with Apollo or Zeus, endure such a
comparison, Antinous being magnified in their estimation
through being classed with these deities; for Celsus is clearly
convicted of falsehood when he says, "that they will not endure
his being compared with Apollo or Zeus." Whereas Christians
(who have learned that their eternal life consists in knowing the
only true God, who is over all, and Jesus Christ, whom He has
sent; and who have learned also that all the gods of the
heathen are greedy demons, which flit around sacrifices and
blood, and other sacrificial accompaniments, in order to
deceive those who have not taken refuge with the God who is
over all, but that the divine and holy angels of God are of a
different nature and will from all the demons on earth, and that
they are known to those exceedingly few persons who have
carefully and intelligently investigated these matters) will not
endure a comparison to be made between them and Apollo or
Zeus, or any being worshipped with odour and blood and
sacrifices; some of them, so acting from their extreme
simplicity, not being able to give a reason for their conduct, but
sincerely observing the precepts which they have received."

Chapter XXXVIII

"The belief, then, in Antinous, or any other such person,
whether among the Egyptians or the Greeks, is, so to speak,
unfortunate; while the belief in Jesus would seem to be either a
fortunate one, or the result of thorough investigation, having the
appearance of the former to the multitude, and of the latter to
exceedingly few. And when I speak of a certain belief being,
as the multitude would call it, unfortunate, I in such a case refer
the cause to God, who knows the reasons of the various fates
allotted to each one who enters human life. The Greeks,
moreover, will admit that even amongst those who are
considered to be most largely endowed with wisdom, good
fortune has had much to do, as in the choice of teachers of one
kind rather than another, and in meeting with a better class of
instructors (there being teachers who taught the most opposite
doctrines), and in being brought up in better circumstances; for
the bringing up of many has been amid surroundings of such a
kind, that they were prevented from ever receiving any idea of
better things, but constantly passed their life, from their earliest
youth, either as the favourites of licentious men or of tyrants, or
in some other wretched condition which forbade the soul to
look upwards. And the causes of these varied fortunes,
according to all probability, are to be found in the reasons of
providence, though it is not easy for men to ascertain these;
but I have said what I have done by way of digression from the
main body of my subject, on account of the proverb, that "such
is the power of faith, because it seizes that which first presents
itself." For it was necessary, owing to the different methods of
education, to speak of the differences of belief among men,
some of whom are more, others less fortunate in their belief;
and from this to proceed to show that what is termed good or
bad fortune would appear to contribute even in the case of the
most talented, to their appearing to be more fully endowed with
reason and to give their assent on grounds of reason to the
majority of human opinions. But enough on these points."

Roman Historian Dio Cassius (Book 69, Reign of Hadrian)

And he restored his monument, which had fallen to ruin. In
Egypt also he restored the so-called City of Antinous. Antinous
was from Bithynium, a city of Bithynia which we also call
Claudioupolis; he had been a favorite of the emperor and had
died in Egypt, either by falling into the Nile, as Hadrian writes,
or, as is more probably the truth, by being offered in sacrifice.
For Hadrian, as I have stated, was in general a great dabbler
in superstitions and employed divinations and incantations of
all kinds. Accordingly, he honored Antinous either because of
his love for him or because he had voluntarily submitted to
death (it being necessary that a life be surrendered voluntarily
for the accomplishment of the ends he had in view), by building
a city on the spot where he had suffered this fate and naming it
after him: and he further set up likenesses, or rather sacred
statues of him, practically all over the world. Finally, he
declared that he had seen a star which he assumed to belong
to Antinous, and gladly lent an ear to the fictitious tales woven
by his associates to the effect that the star had really come into
being from the spirit of Antinous and had then appeared for the
first time. On this account he became the object of some
ridicule [as also because the death of his sister Paulina he
had not immediately paid her any honor.

The Forged Historia Augusta -- Life of Hadrian (4th C, based
on earlier sources)

During a journey on the Nile he lost Antinous, his favourite, and
for this youth he wept like a woman. Concerning this incident
there are varying rumours; for some claim that he had devoted
himself to death for Hadrian, and others -- what both his beauty
and Hadrian's sensuality suggest. But however this may be,
the Greeks deified him at Hadrian's request, and declared that
oracles were given through his agency, but these, it is
commonly asserted, were composed by Hadrian himself.

andrewcriddle

The Greek in Pausanius (according to Perseus.tufts.edu) is
KAI TELETH TE KATA ETOS hEKASTON KAI AGWN ESTIN AUTW
DIA ETOUS PEMPTOU for
The Greek in Eusebius (according to Loeb) is
KAI GAR POLIN EKTISEN EPWNUMON ANTINOOU KAI PROPhHTAS for
(Hadrian is not explicitly mentioned in the last sentence the whole passage
ends very abruptly as well as beginning abruptly. )

For the greek text of Pausanius see
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin...3A1999.01.0159

The Loeb text for the quote of Hegesippus in Eusebius is
hOIS KENOTAPhIA KAI NAOUS EPOIHSAN hWS MEChRI NUN hWN ESTIN
KAI ANTINOOS DOULOS hADRIANOU KAISAROS hOU KAI AGWN AGETAI
ANTINOEIOS hO EPh hHMWN GENOMENOS KAI GAR POLIN EKTISEN
EPWNUMON ANTINOOU KAI PROPhHTAS

(I hope my transliteration is OK. Is there a standard one for this board ?
'H' is always eta 'h' at beginning of word is rough breathing otherwise
part of Phi or Chi or Theta 'W' is omega)

Andrew Criddle

Vorkosigan

Thanks! That helps me see a lot more clearly. As far as I can see the Greek seems very unrelated (warning: beautiful idea about to be slain by cold facts). How do the first two sentences compare? I wanted to know if the "they" really exists in both.

Pausanius from Perseus
[7] enomisthê de kai Antinous sphisin einai theos: tôn de en Mantineiai neôtatos estin ho tou Antinou naos. houtos espoudasthê perissôs dê ti hupo basileôs Adrianou: egô de met' anthrôpôn men eti auton onta ouk eidon, en de agalmasin eidon kai en graphais. echei men dê gera kai heterôthi, kai epi tôi Neilôi polis Aiguptiôn estin epônumos Antinou: timas de en Mantineiai kata toionde eschêke. genos ên ho Antinous ek Bithuniou tês huper Sangariou potamou: hoi de Bithunieis Arkades te eisi kai Mantineis ta anôthen. [8] toutôn heneka ho basileus katestêsato autôi kai en Mantineiai timas, kai teletê te kata etos hekaston kai agôn estin autôi dia etous pemptou. oikos de estin en tôi gumnasiôi Mantineusin agalmata echôn Antinou kai es talla theas axios lithôn heneka hois kekosmêtai kai apidonti es tas graphas: hai de Antinou eisin hai pollai, Dionusôi malista eikasmenai. kai dê kai tês en Kerameikôi graphês, hê to ergon eiche to Athênaiôn en Mantineiai, kai tautês autothi esti mimêma.

hOIS KENOTAPhIA KAI NAOUS EPOIHSAN hWS MEChRI NUN hWN ESTIN
KAI ANTINOOS DOULOS hADRIANOU KAISAROS hOU KAI AGWN AGETAI
ANTINOEIOS hO EPh hHMWN GENOMENOS KAI GAR POLIN EKTISEN
EPWNUMON ANTINOOU KAI PROPhHTAS
________

Anyway, stick around, I see you are an active writer and poster on a number of groups.

Vorkosigan

PhilosopherJay

Hi UglyManOnCAmpus,

This is interesting. I guess the next thing to check is if anybody quotes the passage before Eusebius and if Eusebius himself quotes it. You may be onto something.


Warmly,

Jay Raskin

PhilosopherJay

Hi Vorkosigan,

This passage from your quotes on Antinous just caught my eye.

snip

snip

The phrase "who was alive but lately" smacks of Eusebius' "till the present day" trope. The author is identifying his time period by his relationship to Antinous, but this is exactly what Eusebius says Hegesippus did. If we look at the whole passage, we can see the way Eusebius is using Hegesippus and Justin together:

H.E. 4.8
Note the phrases in Hegesippus "as is done to our day" "instituted in our day" and the sentence in Justin Martyr, "We do not think it out of place to mention here Antinous also, who lived in our day," Is it not incredible that both Christian authors, Justin and Hegesippus date themeselves by references to Antinous. We may imagine an equivalent case where two modern authors write books without any indication of when they wrote except for references to Elvis Presley, and these happen to be the only two books around 150 years later, telling us about the communist movement in the late 20th century.

This suggests to me that Eusebius has edited the work we call the 1st Apology. This can be suported by looking at the next passage (30) which runs:


Note the trope "we behold things that have happened and are happening"

The theme of Jesus Christ being a magician is raised in Eusebius' "Demonstratio Evanglica."

(3.5)
It is evident to me from this and what we have discussed before that Eusebius has forged at least parts of Justin Martyr's 1st Apology, if not the whole thing. If this is the case, we have a real catastrophe for Early Christian History, as so much that has been written about it has been based on the supposition that this work was a Second Century Work and not a Fourth Century work.

Warmly,

Jay Raskin

PhilosopherJay

Hi Vorkosigan,

It seems to me obvious that Eusebius is not copying the words directly from Pausanias. He is taking the information directly from Pausanias. The fact that mystic rites are instituted means that there must be priests to perform these rites. Eusebius makes a sarcastic dig at the Antinous cult by calling these priests "appointed prophets." The genuine Jewish prophets were men who were not appointed by anybody but who felt the holy spirit within themselves and struggled against authority. Calling the priests of the Antinous Cult "appointed prophets" just points up the artificiality of the mystic rites. It is Eusebius' commentary on the information in Pausanias, not different information.

Warmly,

Jay Raskin

andrewcriddle

'they' exists in both but in rather different ways.
The beginning of the Hegesippus quote translated literally is
'to them cenotaphs and shrines they made' (EPOIHSAN is
'they made')
The beginning of the Pausanius quote translated literally is
'And also Antinous has been accepted by them to be a God'
(SPhISIN is 'by them')

Hegesippus is talking about the activity of an unspecified
'them' (building cenotaphs etc) Pausanius is talking about a
them (the Mantineians) by whom Antinous has been accepted
as divine.
ie in Hegesippus the verb is 3rd person plural active 'they made'
while in Pausanius the verb is 3rd personal singular passive
'Antinous has been accepted by them' (ENOMISThH is 'he has
been accepted')

Andrew Criddle