Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Toto · 03-12-2006, 11:38 AM

Why did early Christians meet before dawn? It has been speculated that they worshipped the rising sun, and had to be up to do whatever they did to welcome it. I know of no way to test this or other propositions on the question.

There is a lot of good material on the christianorigins.com website, but I think that you will find the Didache on Peter Kirby's other popular web site, earlychristianwritings: The Didache

S.C.Carlson · 03-12-2006, 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Why did early Christians meet before dawn? It has been speculated that they worshipped the rising sun, and had to be up to do whatever they did to welcome it. I know of no way to test this or other propositions on the question.

Good question. I always assumed that it was before they had to start working for the day or that's when slaves were allowed to be out and about, but I don't really know.

punk77 · 03-12-2006, 03:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Kesler

Paul says that the Sabbath, along with the rest of the old covenant, is no longer binding on Christians:

See also Galatians 3:23-25 which refers to the law as a "disciplinarian" (KJV says "schoolmaster") which verse 25 says Christians are no longer subject to.

Whilst Paul says that the old covenant is no longer binding on christians there is (as far as I know) no commands to follow a 1st day sabbath from God, Jesus or the disciples is there?:huh:. Is the 1st day Sabbath just a matter of tradition?

John Kesler · 03-12-2006, 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by punk77

Whilst Paul says that the old covenant is no longer binding on christians there is (as far as I know) no commands to follow a 1st day sabbath from God, Jesus or the disciples is there?

No.

Quote:

Originally Posted by punk77

:huh:. Is the 1st day Sabbath just a matter of tradition?

I think it is in error to refer to Lord's Day celebration as the "Sabbath." The Sabbath was, and always will be, from sundown Friday to sundown Saturday. It seems that Christians at an early date started commerating the resurrection of Jesus, even though there is no explicit NT command to do so. 1 Corinthians 16:1-2 may presuppose that Christians were gathering on the first day of the week. Here is what Justin Martyr, circa 150-160, said:

Quote:

http://www.earlychristianwritings.co...stapology.html
And we afterwards continually remind each other of these things. And the wealthy among us help the needy; and we always keep together; and for all things wherewith we are supplied, we bless the Maker of all through His Son Jesus Christ, and through the Holy Ghost. And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons. And they who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit; and what is collected is deposited with the president, who succours the orphans and widows and those who, through sickness or any other cause, are in want, and those who are in bonds and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word takes care of all who are in need. But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration.

Chili · 03-12-2006, 06:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by punk77

Whilst Paul says that the old covenant is no longer binding on christians there is (as far as I know) no commands to follow a 1st day sabbath from God, Jesus or the disciples is there?:huh:. Is the 1st day Sabbath just a matter of tradition?

Or go to Gal 5:4 where Paul tells Christians that if they [still] seek justification in the law they have been severed from Christ and have fallen from Gods favor. That is what freedom in Christ is all about or the seventh day would be no other than than any other day.

To celebrate Sunday as the holy day of communion in memory of Christ actually denies our Christian condition and is meant to be a foreshadow of things to come.

Amaleq13 · 03-12-2006, 07:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by S.C.Carlson

Good question. I always assumed that it was before they had to start working for the day or that's when slaves were allowed to be out and about, but I don't really know.

I'm sticking with the timing given by the Gospel stories. Imagine the liturgical enhancements it would offer if the story of the discovery of the tomb was read aloud during the service.

Buster Daily · 03-12-2006, 09:18 PM

My (now deceased) grandmother was always very vocal against people working on the sabbath which, to her, was Sunday. She seemed to have no problem using electricity or water on Sunday and probably didn't even realize that police, ambulance and fire fighters were on call as well. We won't even go into military and national defense. I'm pretty sure her background was Methodist, but in the old(en) days, Methodists were among the strictest. Anyhoo, she was one of these people that loved to quote the ten commandments and would surely have been in favor of having them prominently displayed in coutrooms and public buildings. One of those commandments was about keeping the sabbath. That was no problem. Everyone knows that the sabbath is Sunday.

Anecdote aside, why do Christians fight so hard for the ten commandments when they, at best, only follow nine? I assume it is out of ignorance. They should probably stick to posting the two commandments of Jesus or something similar...or otherwise they should be worried about s*&t like seething a kid in its mother's milk and not eating seafood without scales.

S.C.Carlson · 03-12-2006, 09:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amaleq13

I'm sticking with the timing given by the Gospel stories. Imagine the liturgical enhancements it would offer if the story of the discovery of the tomb was read aloud during the service.

Pliny's letter is about regular services, not the Easter service, which has its own requirements. My sense is that the timing of when they regularly meet was more dictated by such extraneous factors as avoiding arrest or not interfering with their masters' schedules. (A lot of Christians in Pliny's day were slaves.)

Stephen

Buster Daily · 03-12-2006, 09:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by S.C.Carlson

Pliny's letter is about regular services, not the Easter service, which has its own requirements. My sense is that the timing of when they regularly meet was more dictated by such extraneous factors as avoiding arrest or not interfering with their masters' schedules. (A lot of Christians in Pliny's day were slaves.)

Mmmm hmmm. So do Christians today have a "get out of Jew free" card?

robto · 03-13-2006, 06:09 AM

I've read two scholarly treatments of this issue (From Sabbath to Sunday by Bacchiocchi and From Sabbath to Lord's Day by Carson, et. al.). They consider the same evidence, and one concludes that the move to Sunday was late and influenced by Roman Sun worship and the other concludes that it happened early, happened in Palestine, and was based on the connection with the day of Jesus's resurrection. :huh:

All that can be said with some certainty is:

- There is almost nothing in the NT to suggest a switch of worship to Sunday. One would expect some evidence of debate on the matter if it had happened already when the NT books were being written.

- It had already happened in the early 2nd century, as witnessed by Ignatius and Justin.

So all we can really say is that it happened sometime after Paul and before c. 100 AD. (Note that many scholars think Colossians was not written by Paul.) So "just a matter of tradition" is right on target.

BTW everyone seems to agree that thinking of Sunday as the Christian "Sabbath" did not happen until medieval times.

And, welcome from me, too!

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03-12-2006, 11:38 AM	#11
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Why did early Christians meet before dawn? It has been speculated that they worshipped the rising sun, and had to be up to do whatever they did to welcome it. I know of no way to test this or other propositions on the question. There is a lot of good material on the christianorigins.com website, but I think that you will find the Didache on Peter Kirby's other popular web site, earlychristianwritings: The Didache

03-12-2006, 09:18 PM	#17
Buster Daily Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Michigan Posts: 119	My (now deceased) grandmother was always very vocal against people working on the sabbath which, to her, was Sunday. She seemed to have no problem using electricity or water on Sunday and probably didn't even realize that police, ambulance and fire fighters were on call as well. We won't even go into military and national defense. I'm pretty sure her background was Methodist, but in the old(en) days, Methodists were among the strictest. Anyhoo, she was one of these people that loved to quote the ten commandments and would surely have been in favor of having them prominently displayed in coutrooms and public buildings. One of those commandments was about keeping the sabbath. That was no problem. Everyone knows that the sabbath is Sunday. Anecdote aside, why do Christians fight so hard for the ten commandments when they, at best, only follow nine? I assume it is out of ignorance. They should probably stick to posting the two commandments of Jesus or something similar...or otherwise they should be worried about s*&t like seething a kid in its mother's milk and not eating seafood without scales.

03-13-2006, 06:09 AM	#20
robto Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Maryland Posts: 701	I've read two scholarly treatments of this issue (From Sabbath to Sunday by Bacchiocchi and From Sabbath to Lord's Day by Carson, et. al.). They consider the same evidence, and one concludes that the move to Sunday was late and influenced by Roman Sun worship and the other concludes that it happened early, happened in Palestine, and was based on the connection with the day of Jesus's resurrection. :huh: All that can be said with some certainty is: - There is almost nothing in the NT to suggest a switch of worship to Sunday. One would expect some evidence of debate on the matter if it had happened already when the NT books were being written. - It had already happened in the early 2nd century, as witnessed by Ignatius and Justin. So all we can really say is that it happened sometime after Paul and before c. 100 AD. (Note that many scholars think Colossians was not written by Paul.) So "just a matter of tradition" is right on target. BTW everyone seems to agree that thinking of Sunday as the Christian "Sabbath" did not happen until medieval times. And, welcome from me, too!

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