Elijah

Pat, if you’re having a hard time understanding what made Jesus so special that he was mythicized, (beyond the possibility of any miracles) you should consider that there is some historical core to the gospels and that maybe there was a guy with a death wish who sacrificed his life and told his followers to do the same, which they did (According to the tradition.) Jesus’ sacrifice convinced Stephen, Stephen’s imitation of that sacrifice convinces Paul, then the martyrs in Rome convince some in Rome, and then pretty soon you have an emperor swearing to the authority of a nobody Jew who preached of a new day coming or whatever you consider the good news to be. That is a pretty good reason to get revered above others and why his claim to messiahship gets taken more seriously. The working class finally gets to champion one of their own.

Just my opinion on why homeboy got mythicized.

aa5874

You are the one who claimed Apoolonius was an ordinary man and introduced "Against Hierocles" by Eusebius.

"Against Hierocles" contradicts your claim. Apollonius was regarded or presented as a man, yet divine with extraordinary powers of miracles perhaps surpassing Jesus who was presented in Against Hiercoles, also as a God. Apollonius even became a priest of Aesclepius when he was just a boy.

Now, the parallels of Jesus and Apollonius are similar with respect to supposed miraculous events, however, their origins are presented as complete opposites.

Jesus is presented as a creature begotten of God, truly a God, that became man, and Apollonius was born man, truly a man, who had powers of the divine.

If you think that I claimed Jesus existed, I must have meant Jesus existed as a myth. I know of no creature that was presented as truly born God, and truly equal to God, and presented as born of a virgin, that is not regarded as a myth.

According to Trypho, in Justin Martyr's Dialogue with Trypho, Jesus was presented similar to the monstrous phenomena or fables of the Greeks. The healing method of Jesus was similar to those of the mythical God Serapis, when a blind man claimed that the mythical God Serapis promised to make him see, if Vespasian would SPIT in his eyes.

It is true Jesus existed, but as a MYTH. Appolonius, if it can be confirmed that he did indeed exist, was deified. but his existence has no bearing whatsoever on the creature who was born of a virgin.

Ben C Smith

Indeed, I think that Apollonius was an ordinary man.

Yes, it does. Now, which do you believe, aa5874? Do you believe me when I say that Apollonius was an ordinary man to whom extraordinary things were ascribed? Or do you believe the ancient writers who said that Apollonius was an extraordinary man right from the start, working miracles and becoming a priest as a mere child?

Ben.

aa5874

You have already admitted that your claim has been contradicted.

Why do you believe Apollonius was a man? Please, on some other thread.

Ben C Smith

(Actually, since both Eusebius and Hierocles wrote centuries ago, I am contradicting them.)

Are you going to answer my question or not?

Ben.

aa5874

You are the one who claimed Apollonius was a man. You need to show all what you know about Apollonius that is credible, before I can answer your question.

Just saying Apollonius was a man, may indeed be totally false, since you are now claiming to contradict Eusebius and Hierocles.

patcleaver

It is common for myths to arise within 20 years of the supposed event. The inscription is late 3rd or 4th century. I thought there was good evedence that Apollionus really existed. None of these are contemporanious with Apollonius. Is there something especially reliable about any of these sources that shows that they are not just the result of a myth.

Ben C Smith

The position that Apollonius did not exist would be more cogent, IMVHO, than your default position that Apollonius was not considered a god by anybody.

The position you find yourself in with regard to Apollonius (no contemporary evidence, indications of fictionalization and embellishment) is the position historians of antiquity find themselves in virtually all the time. Figures for whom there is solid contemporary evidence and few indications of embellishment or agenda are the rare ones.

Ben.

Ben C Smith

I ran through the sources for patcleaver. You may consult them at will.

I take it you really do not know whether Apollonius existed or not.

Ben.

Jeffrey Gibson

Writing in response to myself I ask, it is??? What is your (my) source for this claim. And what evidence can you (I) bring forward to support it?

Is this another of your (my) claims along the lines of the one you (I) made about how in his Plutus Aristophanes proclaims Ascelpius to be the son of Zeus?

me