Freethought & Rationalism Archive

James Brown · 10-27-2009, 09:14 AM

Based on a footnote from an essay I read, I did some investigation about Jesus' disciples, something I had never done as a Christian.

The three Synoptic Gospels name Jesus' disciples in neat orderly lists. In Mark 3:14-19 we find this list of names:

Simon (Peter)
James (of Zebedee)
John (of Zebedee)
Andrew
Philip
Bartholomew
Matthew
Thomas
James (of Alphaeus)
Thaddeus
Simon the Zealot
Judas Iscariot

In Matthew 10:2-4, we find:

Simon (Peter)
James (of Zebedee)
John (of Zebedee)
Andrew
Philip
Bartholomew
Matthew
Thomas
James (of Alphaeus)
Thaddeus
Simon the Zealot
Judas Iscariot

And in Luke 6:13-16, we find:

Simon (Peter)
James
John
Andrew
Philip
Bartholomew
Matthew
Thomas
James (of Alphaeus)
Judas (of James)
Simon the Zealot
Judas Isacariot

I couldn't get the fancy table formatting to work properly in this post, which would make my point clearer. When I ported these lists to a spreadsheet, one glaring item jumped out at me: The lists don't match. Mark and Matthew have Thaddaeus as one of the disciples, where Luke changes his name to Judas of James. There's nothing in any text to indicate that these are two different names for the same person, as in Simon aka Peter. So between the Synoptic gospels, Jesus has 13 disciples.

I submit this item to those who argue that there are no contradictions in the Bible.

John, as in other things, is less clear. John never makes a bullet point list of disciples. Instead, the writer identifies disciples by name only when they have speaking parts or play crucial roles. As such, only eight disciples are named, including two new characters, Nathanael and Joseph of Arimathea.

And who are these disciples, be they twelve, or thirteen or some other number? Some of them are familiar players, such as Peter, John, and Judas Iscariot. Others, however, are mentioned in the entire New Testament only in the roll call of names, like Bartholomew, Simon the Zealot, Thaddaeus, and Judas son of James. One could argue that these names were merely tossed in to make the numbers work out right, be they for zodiacal completeness or to mirror the Twelve Tribes of Israel.

How curious it is that the two names that make the three lists disagree--Thaddaeus and Judas son of James--don't have any lines at all in the entire New Testament. It's as though their names were tossed in with the elite as a sop to favored parties, but without any corroborating details that could be challenged later. And even more curious to me, what with all the 'corrections' made to the gospels as they were copied in the centuries following, that no one ever thought to make a harmonizing change as simple as a name switch.

Toto · 10-27-2009, 11:11 AM

See the classic Seven Apostles by Peter Kirby.

Huon · 10-29-2009, 07:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JamesABrown

How curious it is that the two names that make the three lists disagree--Thaddaeus and Judas son of James--don't have any lines at all in the entire New Testament. It's as though their names were tossed in with the elite as a sop to favored parties, but without any corroborating details that could be challenged later. And even more curious to me, what with all the 'corrections' made to the gospels as they were copied in the centuries following, that no one ever thought to make a harmonizing change as simple as a name switch.

Thaddaeus is mentioned in Mark 3.18 and Matt 10.3.
Jude, brother of James is mentioned in Luke 6.16 and Acts 1.13 (Judas the brother of James, KJV).

The letter of Jude begins with

KJV Jude 1:1 Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called: ...

The conclusion is obvious [joke]:
Jude = Judas the brother of James. (Which James ?)
Thaddaeus = Jude
[/joke]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Catholic Encyclopedy

In the address of the Epistle the author styles himself "Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ and brother of James". "Servant of Jesus Christ" means "apostolic minister or labourer". "Brother of James" denotes him as the brother of James kat exochen who was well-known to the Hebrew Christians to whom the Epistle of St. Jude was written. This James is to be identified with the Bishop of the Church of Jerusalem (Acts 15:13; 21:18), spoken of by St. Paul as "the brother of the Lord" (Galatians 1:19), who was the author of the Catholic Epistle of St. James, and is regarded amongst Catholic interpreters as the Apostle James the son of Alpheus (St. James the Less). This last identification, however, is not evident, nor, from a critical point of view, does it seem beyond all doubt. Most Catholic commentators identify Jude with the "Judas Jacobi" ("Jude, the brother of James" in the D.V.) of Luke 6:16 and Acts 1:13 — also called Thaddeus (Matthew 10:3: Mark 3:18) — referring the expression to the fact that his brother James was better known than himself in the primitive Church. This view is strongly confirmed by the title "the brother of James", by which Jude designates himself in the address of his Epistle. If this identification is proved, it is clear that Jude, the author of the Epistle, was reckoned among the Twelve Apostles. This opinion is most highly probable.

... most highly probable !

Eusebius of Cæsarea (260-340) placed the Epistle of Jude among the antilegomena or the "disputed books, which are nevertheless known and accepted by the greater number" (Church History II.23; CH III.25).

In Church History I.13, Eusebius tells the story of King Abgarus V Ushana of Edessa, who wrote a letter to "Jesus the excellent Saviour". Jesus answered and sent one of his disciples, Thaddaeus, an apostle, one of the Seventy.

Now this story is officially abandoned. King Abgarus could have been Abgar IX (c. 206). Thaddaeus is Addaï, a missionary from Palestine who evangelized Mesopotamia about the middle of the second century, and became the first bishop of Edessa.

Everybody can understand why Thaddaeus IS necessary in the list of the Twelve.

James Brown · 10-29-2009, 07:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Huon

Quote:

Originally Posted by JamesABrown

How curious it is that the two names that make the three lists disagree--Thaddaeus and Judas son of James--don't have any lines at all in the entire New Testament. It's as though their names were tossed in with the elite as a sop to favored parties, but without any corroborating details that could be challenged later. And even more curious to me, what with all the 'corrections' made to the gospels as they were copied in the centuries following, that no one ever thought to make a harmonizing change as simple as a name switch.

Thaddaeus is mentioned in Mark 3.18 and Matt 10.3.

Are you correcting me? Those are the two synoptic lists of disciples I was referring to. Why is he not listed in the Luke list?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Huon

Jude, brother of James is mentioned in Luke 6.16 and Acts 1.13 (Judas the brother of James, KJV).

Yes, in Luke's list of disciples, Judas brother of James is mentioned, and the Acts list is yet another roll call of eleven disciples in which Thaddaeus is noticeably absent. I was not aware that the author of the Book of Jude was Judas. Why no mention of his status as one of the Twelve?

Huon · 10-29-2009, 08:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JamesABrown

Are you correcting me? Those are the two synoptic lists of disciples I was referring to. Why is he not listed in the Luke list?

No, I am not correcting you.
You quote (correctly) Judas of James, in Luke. Thaddaeus is his second name, according to many (later) stories. I am not the author of these contorsions.

James Brown · 10-29-2009, 08:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Huon

Thaddaeus is his second name, according to many (later) stories.

I see nothing in the gospels to indicate that Thaddaeus = Judas of James. There are later stories that assert that Jesus was married to Mary Magdalene. If most Christians wont' accept the latter, why should I accept the former?

Thanks for the remarks. I was hoping some of our resident fundamentalists would swoop in to justify everything, but I suppose not.

JoeWallack · 11-07-2009, 01:43 PM

JW:
Let me get the table started:

Mark	Matthew	Luke
Simon	Simon	Simon

What I find most interesting regarding the supposed disciples is the contradiction between "Mark" and "Matthew" regarding who the tax collector was:

What Was The Name of the Tax Collector?

Per "Mark" it was "Levi". "Matthew" changed the name to "Matthew". "Levi" sounds contrived (in a Gospel full of contrived names = Mark's DiualCritical Marks. Presentation Of Names As Evidence Of Fiction) as the Levites were the Priestly tribe that survived on taxes, but another reason for "Matthew" to change the name may have been the External pressure to place a "Matthew" disciple within the narrative. The External evidence indicates that at the time Papias identified a disciple "Matthew" who wrote about Jesus, the Gospel "Matthew" was unknown. After Papias identifies a tradition that a "Matthew" disciple wrote about Jesus (and as far as we know, Papias' writing was the first identification to subsequent orthodox Christianity (Irenaeus/Eusebius et all)) than a Gospel is written, editing "Mark" and changing the name of the tax collector to "Matthew" and receiving an attribution of authorship to "Matthew" after the tax collector is changed to "Matthew".

This backwards attribution is also supported from a common sense standpoint (always the best criterion). We can be absolutely certain that there was no "Matthew" or any other witness that witnessed "Matthew". This makes it likely that attribution is backwards and likely Satan's work. In order to have a witness to the Impossible, you first have to make up the Impossible and than make up the witness.

Joseph

http://errancywiki.com/index.php?title=Main_Page

Joe Blowe · 11-07-2009, 09:34 PM

http://www.atheistnexus.org/group/wi...welve-apostles

The apostles are named in:
Mark 3:13-18
Matthew 10:2-4
Acts 1:13-26
John 1:40-50, 6:71, 20:24, and 21:2
2 Corinthians 1:1

Here’s a list of the twenty names of apostles mentioned in the bible:

Simon Peter
Andrew
James (son of Zebedee)
John (son of Zebedee)
Philip
Bartholomew
James (son of Alphaeus)
Judas Iscariot
Judas (James’ brother)
Nathanael
Matthew
Levi
Thomas
Thomas Didymus
Thaddaeus
Lebbaeus Thaddaeus
Simon the Canaanite
Simon Zelotes
Matthias
Paul

[Different versions of the bible use different spellings so be careful. Simon Zelotes, for example, is known in some versions as Simon the Zealot.]

Here’s how the apologists whittle the list of apostles down to the twelve they require:

* Matthias and Paul were not chosen by Jesus (18 still on the list)

* Thomas and Thomas Didymus were one and the same (17 still on the list)

* Simon the Canaanite was also known as Simon Zelotes (16 still on the list)

* In Matthew 10:3, Matthew is described as a publican and in Luke 5:27, Levi is described as a publican, so the apologists have declared (with no real evidence) that the one publican used both names (15 still on the list).

* Thaddaeus (Mark 3:18) and Lebbaeus Thaddaeus (Matt 10:3) are one and the same (14 still on the list).

* Judas (the brother of James) is not the Judas who betrayed Jesus because John 14:22 specifically states that he was “Judas NOT Iscariot”, so who was he? Well he wasn’t one of the famous apostles (say the apologists) otherwise we’d have more information about him...So maybe Judas was another name for Thaddaeus – yeah, that will do, just make it up! (13 still on the list)

* As for Nathanael (say the apologists) there is no way he could be an apostle in his own right, otherwise we’d have 13 apostles and that would be just plain silly – so they simply state that it must have been a name used by one of the other apostles. No evidence, of course, but it solves the problem so it must be true – and there you have it: Twelve apostles left on the list.

So these are the commonly accepted apostles:
Simon/Peter, Andrew, James, John, Philip, Bartholomew, James (son of Alphaeus), Judas Iscariot, Matthew, Thomas, Thaddaeus, and Simon.

And these are the two extra apostles:
Judas (brother of James) and Nathanael

Whichever twelve are chosen by the Christian, you can immediately produce two others that are not on his list.

10-27-2009, 09:14 AM	#1
James Brown Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Texas, U.S. Posts: 5,844	Jesus' Thirteen Disciples Based on a footnote from an essay I read, I did some investigation about Jesus' disciples, something I had never done as a Christian. The three Synoptic Gospels name Jesus' disciples in neat orderly lists. In Mark 3:14-19 we find this list of names: Simon (Peter) James (of Zebedee) John (of Zebedee) Andrew Philip Bartholomew Matthew Thomas James (of Alphaeus) Thaddeus Simon the Zealot Judas Iscariot In Matthew 10:2-4, we find: Simon (Peter) James (of Zebedee) John (of Zebedee) Andrew Philip Bartholomew Matthew Thomas James (of Alphaeus) Thaddeus Simon the Zealot Judas Iscariot And in Luke 6:13-16, we find: Simon (Peter) James John Andrew Philip Bartholomew Matthew Thomas James (of Alphaeus) Judas (of James) Simon the Zealot Judas Isacariot I couldn't get the fancy table formatting to work properly in this post, which would make my point clearer. When I ported these lists to a spreadsheet, one glaring item jumped out at me: The lists don't match. Mark and Matthew have Thaddaeus as one of the disciples, where Luke changes his name to Judas of James. There's nothing in any text to indicate that these are two different names for the same person, as in Simon aka Peter. So between the Synoptic gospels, Jesus has 13 disciples. I submit this item to those who argue that there are no contradictions in the Bible. John, as in other things, is less clear. John never makes a bullet point list of disciples. Instead, the writer identifies disciples by name only when they have speaking parts or play crucial roles. As such, only eight disciples are named, including two new characters, Nathanael and Joseph of Arimathea. And who are these disciples, be they twelve, or thirteen or some other number? Some of them are familiar players, such as Peter, John, and Judas Iscariot. Others, however, are mentioned in the entire New Testament only in the roll call of names, like Bartholomew, Simon the Zealot, Thaddaeus, and Judas son of James. One could argue that these names were merely tossed in to make the numbers work out right, be they for zodiacal completeness or to mirror the Twelve Tribes of Israel. How curious it is that the two names that make the three lists disagree--Thaddaeus and Judas son of James--don't have any lines at all in the entire New Testament. It's as though their names were tossed in with the elite as a sop to favored parties, but without any corroborating details that could be challenged later. And even more curious to me, what with all the 'corrections' made to the gospels as they were copied in the centuries following, that no one ever thought to make a harmonizing change as simple as a name switch.

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10-27-2009, 11:11 AM	#2
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	See the classic Seven Apostles by Peter Kirby.

11-07-2009, 09:34 PM	#8
Joe Blowe Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Adelaide, South Australia Posts: 17	http://www.atheistnexus.org/group/wi...welve-apostles The apostles are named in: Mark 3:13-18 Matthew 10:2-4 Acts 1:13-26 John 1:40-50, 6:71, 20:24, and 21:2 2 Corinthians 1:1 Here’s a list of the twenty names of apostles mentioned in the bible: Simon Peter Andrew James (son of Zebedee) John (son of Zebedee) Philip Bartholomew James (son of Alphaeus) Judas Iscariot Judas (James’ brother) Nathanael Matthew Levi Thomas Thomas Didymus Thaddaeus Lebbaeus Thaddaeus Simon the Canaanite Simon Zelotes Matthias Paul [Different versions of the bible use different spellings so be careful. Simon Zelotes, for example, is known in some versions as Simon the Zealot.] Here’s how the apologists whittle the list of apostles down to the twelve they require: * Matthias and Paul were not chosen by Jesus (18 still on the list) * Thomas and Thomas Didymus were one and the same (17 still on the list) * Simon the Canaanite was also known as Simon Zelotes (16 still on the list) * In Matthew 10:3, Matthew is described as a publican and in Luke 5:27, Levi is described as a publican, so the apologists have declared (with no real evidence) that the one publican used both names (15 still on the list). * Thaddaeus (Mark 3:18) and Lebbaeus Thaddaeus (Matt 10:3) are one and the same (14 still on the list). * Judas (the brother of James) is not the Judas who betrayed Jesus because John 14:22 specifically states that he was “Judas NOT Iscariot”, so who was he? Well he wasn’t one of the famous apostles (say the apologists) otherwise we’d have more information about him...So maybe Judas was another name for Thaddaeus – yeah, that will do, just make it up! (13 still on the list) * As for Nathanael (say the apologists) there is no way he could be an apostle in his own right, otherwise we’d have 13 apostles and that would be just plain silly – so they simply state that it must have been a name used by one of the other apostles. No evidence, of course, but it solves the problem so it must be true – and there you have it: Twelve apostles left on the list. So these are the commonly accepted apostles: Simon/Peter, Andrew, James, John, Philip, Bartholomew, James (son of Alphaeus), Judas Iscariot, Matthew, Thomas, Thaddaeus, and Simon. And these are the two extra apostles: Judas (brother of James) and Nathanael Whichever twelve are chosen by the Christian, you can immediately produce two others that are not on his list.

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