aa5874

I have no good, persuasive evidence or substantiation for the grandiose claims of the NT or the Church fathers. ZERO

Jesus , his disciples and Paul are a pack of lies.

Doug Shaver

No, but when the subject is history, I don't ask for proof, either. I just ask for evidence.

And, if the evidence does not convince me, I do not deny that there is evidence. I just say that I find the evidence unconvincing.

aa5874

Well, just give me what you have! I now ask, do you have evidence that Jesus, his disciples and Paul are not fiction?

The birth of Jesus, the dialogue of Mary and the angel Gabriel, as reported in gLuke, are a pack of lies, do you have any evidence to contradict me?

The conversion of Paul, as reported in Acts, is fiction, do you have any evidence to discredit my conclusion?

The subject is history. I asked for evidence.

Doug Shaver

I and several others here have already showed you the evidence. If you want to say it doesn't convince you, then fine. Tell us you're not convinced. But your pretense of having looked for evidence and failed to find any is getting old.

spamandham

Is your standard then, that any writing that contains elements of obvious fantasy, is therefor fiction?

aa5874

As I have already pointed out in other threads and posts, Jesus was portrayed as both god and man, but as soon as the god-element is discarded then the human Jesus still disintergrates to fiction.

If the story of the birth of Jesus as written in Luke is examined, a barrel of fiction emerges, but what is even more alarming is that this fiction was prophesied in the Scriptures, according to the authors of Gospels.

The authors of the NT made false prophecies come true, in effect, Jesus is the product of fiction.

In Luke, the angel Gabriel visits Mary, by the way an angel named Gabriel is also mentioned in Daniel. This Gabriel explains to Mary that she would have a Son born of the Holy Ghost and this would happen without having sexual contact with any man.

Mary questioned Gabriel about this unknown method of conception, however, according to the author, Jesus was born exactly as the angel Gabriel predicted.

But, this birth is fiction, Ghosts do not make women pregnant.

So, let's reject all this miraculous ghost story and try to find out if Jesus was fiction or not. Once the miraculous is removed, Mary can now be portrayed as a liar, she must have had sex with someone in order for Jesus to have been born.

We can put Mary's problem aside. Jesus, according to the author, became extremely popular and controversial, was believed to be a prophet, had thousands of followers and had a clique of 12 disciples who believed he was the Son of God.

But Jesus' life on earth is unrealistic, he was never beaten, stoned, imprisoned before his crucifixion. At his trial, Jesus was pronounced to be not guilty by the arbiter, Pilate, yet was sent by this same person to be crucified.

We have Jesus the Son of Ananus, John the Baptist, and the Egyptian false prophet as stated in Josephus, who were beaten and killed without any trial, yet Jesus found innocent was still executed. Jesus' life on earth is unrealistic, he is fiction.

spamandham

...but why do you include Paul in your list of fictional characters? Other than his vision, which he certainly may have had, there's nothing particularly fantastic about Paul. He is depicted as pretty much an ordinary guy.

Paul very well could have had a conversion experience in the form of a vision. Whereas you and I can easily find natural explanations for it (frontal lobe epilepsy, a dream, drugs, etc.), Paul would have seen a supernatural explanation.

aa5874

I do not consider fictitious characters as "pretty ordinary". If the Churches knew Paul was a dreamer, on drugs or had frontal lobe epilepsy, why did they canonise his epistles?

Paul, in the epistles claimed that the gospel of uncircumcision was committed to him while the gospel of circumcision was committed to Peter, but even the Gospels contradict Paul, there was no Gospel of the Circumcision. Jesus, according to the Gospels, had already told Peter and the disciples about the his gospel, long before Paul, and Peter was never told to preach the Gospel to the Jews only.

In Matthew 28.19-20 Mark 16.15-16 There is no written history of this Gospel of circumcision. When was this gospel of circumcision started and is this gospel still being preached to the Circumcised? What is the Gospel of Circumcision?

This Gospel is fiction and only Paul knew about it. Paul is fiction.

Headache

Yes

Gamera

Using this standard, given that all sources in the ancient world were apologia about something, you have just effaced all of western history until the invention of the camera.