Originally Posted by Toto

autograph =/= autographed

There has been a request for an "original" version, but I think that a reasonably verifiable copy of an original would be satisfactory.

Originally Posted by GenesisNemesis

Christians don't understand the Koran.

Originally Posted by Nancy Todd

What does Jesus mean when he says that one must hate one's family (or love them less than Jesus) in order to be his disciple (i.e., student, from the Latin discipulus, from discere, to learn)? Well, judging from the demands Jesus makes on his followers and on the way he regards his own family, Jesus means that his followers must give up everything for him.

In MT4, 18ff, Jesus calls his first disciples, taking James, the son of Zebedee, and his brother John away from their father and the family business. In other words, Jesus calls on James and John to abandon their family responsibilities on the spot to follow him. They actually walk away from their father as he is mending the nets. Jesus also takes Simon Peter and Andrew away from their fishing business, and they, too, abandon it on the spot. It seem reasonable to me for a person to conclude that such seemingly irresponsible actions would cause great economic if not emotional harm to their families.

When one would-be follower said, "Lord, let me go first and bury my father," Jesus said, "Follow me, and let the dead bury their dead." (MT8,18ff) In LK9, 57, Jesus also tells a would-be follower who wishes to first say good-bye to his family, "No one who sets a hand to the plow and looks to what was left behind is fit for the kingdom of God." Once again, Jesus demands that his followers abandon their familial responsibilities.He will not even allow them time to bury a dead father or say good-bye.

Jesus leads by example. When he was told that his mother and brothers had come to speak with him, he responded by saying, "Who is my mother? Who are my brothers?" Then he stretched his hand out toward his disciples and said, "Hereare my mother and my brothers." (MT13, 46ff). Mk 3,35 adds "whoever does the will of God is my brother and sister and mother." In Lk8, 19ff, Jesus, when informed his mother and brothers wish to see him, says, "My mother and my brothers are those who hear the word of God and act on it." This reminds me of certain cults that I have read about, whose members are required to cut off their relations with their families and consider their fellow cultists to be their family instead.

In Lk14, 33, Jesus say, "...everyone of you who does not renounce all his possessions cannot be my disciple." This, of course, has the effect of Jesus requiring his disciples to abandon their familial responsibilities. In MT19, 27ff, Peter says to Jesus, "We have given up everything and followed you. What will there be for us?" Jesus says that they will sit on twelve thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel, and that "everyone who has given up houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or lands for the sake of my name will receive a hundred times more, and will inherit eternal life." In other words, those who have abandoned their families for Jesus's sake will be richly rewarded.

Whether Jesus meant that one should literally hate one's family or that one should hate them only in a figurative way is, to me, somewhat irrelevant because, either way, his followers are required to behave as if they don't care a whit about the well-being of their families. They must choose between following Jesus and their family responsibilities and obligations. Jesus doesn't leave a middle ground.

Originally Posted by DancesWithCoffeeCups

You won't find many of them here. Perhaps that is why you stay away from BC&H, but of course that's just my speculation. When you're ready, start a thread in the BC&H forum and I'll join you there to discuss which portions of the bible you feel myself and others "don't understand". I'm looking forward to it.