Freethought & Rationalism Archive

stephan huller · 10-01-2012, 02:07 PM

trying to figure out how scholars say that Herod did not build the walls of Jerusalem but that Josephus's account is still upheld. It really is cut and dry as far as I can see it now. Josephus says Herod built the walls:

http://books.google.com/books?id=27n...sephus&f=false

stephan huller · 10-01-2012, 02:14 PM

Here it says that the discovery only confirms that the wall wasn't complete at the time of Herod: http://www.deseretnews.com/article/7...of-change.html

Quote:

According to CBS, the four Bronze coins were minted around 17 A.D. by Roman official Valerius Gratus. Gratus preceded Pontius Pilate of the New Testament story as Rome's representative in Jerusalem, according to Ronny Reich of Haifa University, one of the two archaeologists in charge of the dig.

The coins were found inside a ritual bath that predated construction of the renovated Temple Mount complex and which was filled in to support the new walls, Reich said.

CNN reports that although tradition was grounded in the belief that Herod constructed the wall, scholars knew ancient historian Flavius Josephus had written that Herod began the expansion project in 22 B.C., but its completion did not take place until approximately 70 years later.

"This bit of archaeological information illustrates the fact that the construction of the Temple Mount walls and Robinson's Arch was an enormous project that lasted decades and was not completed during Herod's lifetime," the [Israel Antiquities] authority's statement said. "This dramatic find confirms Josephus' descriptions which state that it was only during the reign of King Agrippa II (Herod's great-grandson) that the work was finished, and upon its completion there were 8,000-10,000 unemployed in Jerusalem."

So they dug under the wall found the coins from 17 CE and then - in order to retain the authenticity of the Josephan account - develop the idea that Herod never completed the wall. Josephus is right in claiming he built the walls and the tower but that it was incomplete. But this doesn't make any sense and more important ly Josephus never says this. He describes this as two separate building projects.

stephan huller · 10-01-2012, 02:22 PM

" Moreover, it was an octagon, and over against it was the tower Hipplicus, and hard by two others were erected by king Herod, in the old wall. These were for largeness, beauty, and strength beyond all that were in the habitable earth; for besides the magnanimity of his nature, and his magnificence towards the city on other occasions, he built these after such an extraordinary manner, to gratify his own private affections, and dedicated these towers to the memory of those three persons who had been the dearest to him, and from whom he named them." [Jewish War 5:4]

"Now as to the tower of Antonia, it was situated at the corner of two cloisters of the court of the temple; of that on the west, and that on the north; it was erected upon a rock of fifty cubits in height, and was on a great precipice; it was the work of king Herod, wherein he demonstrated his natural magnanimity. In the first place, the rock itself was covered over with smooth pieces of stone, from its foundation, both for ornament, and that any one who would either try to get up or to go down it might not be able to hold his feet upon it. Next to this, and before you come to the edifice of the tower itself, there was a wall three cubits high; but within that wall all the space of the tower of Antonia itself was built upon, to the height of forty cubits. The inward parts had the largeness and form of a palace, it being parted into all kinds of rooms and other conveniences, such as courts, and places for bathing, and broad spaces for camps; insomuch that, by having all conveniences that cities wanted, it might seem to be composed of several cities, but by its magnificence it seemed a palace. And as the entire structure resembled that of a tower, it contained also four other distinct towers at its four corners; whereof the others were but fifty cubits high; whereas that which lay upon the southeast corner was seventy cubits high, that from thence the whole temple might be viewed; but on the corner where it joined to the two cloisters of the temple, it had passages down to them both, through which the guard (for there always lay in this tower a Roman legion) went several ways among the cloisters, with their arms, on the Jewish festivals, in order to watch the people, that they might not there attempt to make any innovations; for the temple was a fortress that guarded the city, as was the tower of Antonia a guard to the temple; and in that tower were the guards of those three (14). There was also a peculiar fortress belonging to the upper city, which was Herod's palace; but for the hill Bezetha, it was divided from the tower Antonia, as we have already told you; and as that hill on which the tower of Antonia stood was the highest of these three, so did it adjoin to the new city, and was the only place that hindered the sight of the temple on the north. And this shall suffice at present to have spoken about the city and the walls about it, because I have proposed to myself to make a more accurate description of it elsewhere. [Jewish War 5.5]

"Modern depictions often show the Antonia as being located along the North side of the temple enclosure. However, Josephus' description of the siege of Jerusalem suggests that it was separated from the temple enclosure itself and probably connected by two colonnades with a narrow space between them. Josephus' measurements suggest about a 600 foot separation between the two complexes."

stephan huller · 10-01-2012, 02:29 PM

Tower of Antonia

stephan huller · 10-01-2012, 02:31 PM

Western Wall:

Duke Leto · 10-01-2012, 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

to whom is this addressed?

I think that one's at me. I was suggesting Agrippa II's childlessness could have been due to homosexuality and this wildcat poster was (I think) criticizing me for asserting that homosexuals can't have kids. This is not what I actually said, I was just pointing out that since Agrippa II in particular was childless one explanation might be that he was gay, and that this was a bit more likely then him being a eunuch king.

stephan huller · 10-01-2012, 02:33 PM

Here is a relatively recent account (i.e. before the discovery) where Josephus account is used to support the idea that Herod the Great built the walls of Jerusalem

http://books.google.com/books?id=DbE...0herod&f=false

stephan huller · 10-01-2012, 02:37 PM

Doesn't this say that according to Josephus Herod built the Western Wall:

http://books.google.com/books?id=FCa...0herod&f=false

"The Antonia Fortress, which dominated the Temple at the junction of its north and west gates, was built on a rocky eminence and had four corner towers. The Temple itself was also a fortress. Herod had rebuilt it with the immense stone blocks that can still be seen in all that remains of it, the Western Wall (known also as the Wailing Wall)."

stephan huller · 10-01-2012, 02:43 PM

Again doesn't this imply that Josephus says that Herod built the western wall were these coins were found?

http://books.google.com/books?id=I9s...0herod&f=false

and again in a chapter called "Herod the Great's Building Frenzy"

http://books.google.com/books?id=pEZ...0herod&f=false

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10-01-2012, 02:07 PM	#71
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	trying to figure out how scholars say that Herod did not build the walls of Jerusalem but that Josephus's account is still upheld. It really is cut and dry as far as I can see it now. Josephus says Herod built the walls: http://books.google.com/books?id=27n...sephus&f=false

10-01-2012, 02:22 PM	#73
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	" Moreover, it was an octagon, and over against it was the tower Hipplicus, and hard by two others were erected by king Herod, in the old wall. These were for largeness, beauty, and strength beyond all that were in the habitable earth; for besides the magnanimity of his nature, and his magnificence towards the city on other occasions, he built these after such an extraordinary manner, to gratify his own private affections, and dedicated these towers to the memory of those three persons who had been the dearest to him, and from whom he named them." [Jewish War 5:4] "Now as to the tower of Antonia, it was situated at the corner of two cloisters of the court of the temple; of that on the west, and that on the north; it was erected upon a rock of fifty cubits in height, and was on a great precipice; it was the work of king Herod, wherein he demonstrated his natural magnanimity. In the first place, the rock itself was covered over with smooth pieces of stone, from its foundation, both for ornament, and that any one who would either try to get up or to go down it might not be able to hold his feet upon it. Next to this, and before you come to the edifice of the tower itself, there was a wall three cubits high; but within that wall all the space of the tower of Antonia itself was built upon, to the height of forty cubits. The inward parts had the largeness and form of a palace, it being parted into all kinds of rooms and other conveniences, such as courts, and places for bathing, and broad spaces for camps; insomuch that, by having all conveniences that cities wanted, it might seem to be composed of several cities, but by its magnificence it seemed a palace. And as the entire structure resembled that of a tower, it contained also four other distinct towers at its four corners; whereof the others were but fifty cubits high; whereas that which lay upon the southeast corner was seventy cubits high, that from thence the whole temple might be viewed; but on the corner where it joined to the two cloisters of the temple, it had passages down to them both, through which the guard (for there always lay in this tower a Roman legion) went several ways among the cloisters, with their arms, on the Jewish festivals, in order to watch the people, that they might not there attempt to make any innovations; for the temple was a fortress that guarded the city, as was the tower of Antonia a guard to the temple; and in that tower were the guards of those three (14). There was also a peculiar fortress belonging to the upper city, which was Herod's palace; but for the hill Bezetha, it was divided from the tower Antonia, as we have already told you; and as that hill on which the tower of Antonia stood was the highest of these three, so did it adjoin to the new city, and was the only place that hindered the sight of the temple on the north. And this shall suffice at present to have spoken about the city and the walls about it, because I have proposed to myself to make a more accurate description of it elsewhere. [Jewish War 5.5] "Modern depictions often show the Antonia as being located along the North side of the temple enclosure. However, Josephus' description of the siege of Jerusalem suggests that it was separated from the temple enclosure itself and probably connected by two colonnades with a narrow space between them. Josephus' measurements suggest about a 600 foot separation between the two complexes."

10-01-2012, 02:29 PM	#74
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	Tower of Antonia

10-01-2012, 02:31 PM	#75
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	Western Wall:

10-01-2012, 02:33 PM	#77
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	Here is a relatively recent account (i.e. before the discovery) where Josephus account is used to support the idea that Herod the Great built the walls of Jerusalem http://books.google.com/books?id=DbE...0herod&f=false

10-01-2012, 02:37 PM	#78
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	Doesn't this say that according to Josephus Herod built the Western Wall: http://books.google.com/books?id=FCa...0herod&f=false "The Antonia Fortress, which dominated the Temple at the junction of its north and west gates, was built on a rocky eminence and had four corner towers. The Temple itself was also a fortress. Herod had rebuilt it with the immense stone blocks that can still be seen in all that remains of it, the Western Wall (known also as the Wailing Wall)."

10-01-2012, 02:43 PM	#79
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	Again doesn't this imply that Josephus says that Herod built the western wall were these coins were found? http://books.google.com/books?id=I9s...0herod&f=false and again in a chapter called "Herod the Great's Building Frenzy" http://books.google.com/books?id=pEZ...0herod&f=false

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