Freethought & Rationalism Archive

manoj · 12-30-2012, 01:22 AM

Hoffmann's Historical Jesus:
http://rjosephhoffmann.wordpress.com...s-the-outline/

Here is a snippet.

Quote:

I am going out on a limb, this last day of 2012, unprotected by footnotes, to offer a few paragraphs on what I think the gospels tell us that we can be relatively sure is “true.” I have been persuaded by a few friends to lay all of this out in a book at the end of this year, so I will. With any luck, it will be shorter and easier to read than any of the books I have read on the subject in the last two decades. Think of this as a preview; I’ll save persuasion, argument and evidence for later.

Cheers
Manoj

Toto · 12-30-2012, 01:43 AM

yawn - until you get to this:

Quote:

In specific ways, the political message of Jesus seems identical to the person described by Josephus (Ant. 18.1) as Judas of Galilee, who opposed the tax structure imposed on the Jews following the census of Quirinius mentioned by both Luke and Josephus. The geographical coordinates of Jesus and Judas coincide in important and suggestive ways

and

Quote:

the preaching of Paul, which deprived Jesus of his historical context and turned him into a mixed-messianic figure

.

maryhelena · 12-30-2012, 01:54 AM

Oh, well, it's just talk, is it not.......

Hoffmann:

Quote:

"Jesus of Nazareth was born toward the beginning of the common era.."

It's the support for this assertion that Hoffmann will have a hard time in providing....oh, well, more fun and games for the ahistoricists/mythicists.....and Hoffmann has half promised to play nice.....

Quote:

"My semi-sincere New Year’s resolution for 2013 is to be nicer to the mythicists,"

Tenorikuma · 12-30-2012, 03:30 AM

Essentially, he has invented a historical Jesus who lived a life roughly parallel to that of the Gospel Jesus, but for whom there is absolutely no historical evidence.

Sounds like he is actually describing the historical Brian.

Sheshbazzar · 12-30-2012, 05:29 AM

:thumbs: +1 rep

Bernard Muller · 12-30-2012, 05:45 AM

The oxonian Jesus!
Hoffmann's Jesus is full of leaps of faith, more so in imagining Jesus' life outside his last year. Obviously, he did not make a critical study of the gospels, because he considers passage like Mk 13:2 as authentic (even justifying Jesus as having dwelled in Jerusalem for many years).
Hoffmann has no methodology, just picking up whatever he needs from the gospels (all of them).
Another easy target for mythicists. Another "portrait" of a scholarly charismatic historical Jesus. Another messy bit adding up to the confusion. Back to the old ways when a scholar can dream up anything and get congratulations by peers ...

Cordially, Bernard

Steven Carr · 12-30-2012, 07:05 AM

HOFFMAN
Rather than a raw political apocalypticism such as we find in the preaching of John the Baptist.....

CARR
Where did that come from? I must have missed John the Baptist's 'I have a dream' speech.

Could somebody point me to a recording of John the Baptist's preaching?

Minimalist · 12-30-2012, 08:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenorikuma

Essentially, he has invented a historical Jesus who lived a life roughly parallel to that of the Gospel Jesus, but for whom there is absolutely no historical evidence.

Sounds like he is actually describing the historical Brian.

FOLLOW THE GOURD!

aa5874 · 12-30-2012, 08:41 AM

Hoffman's Jesus is a MONSTROUS Fabrication based on Fiction, dubious tradition and his imagination.

The very NT claimed Jesus was born in BETHLEHEM after his mother was Pregnant by a Ghost.

See Matthew 2 and Luke 2

Matthew 2:1 KJV

Quote:

Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold , there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem..

Luke 2:11 KJV

Quote:

For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.

Hoffman will FABRICATE his own Fiction story that Jesus was from Nazareth WITHOUT a single shred of evidence IN or OUT the NT.

See http://rjosephhoffmann.wordpress.com...s-the-outline/

Quote:

....Jesus of Nazareth was born toward the beginning of the common era to a peasant woman named Miriam. He was from the region known as the Galilee (ha-Galel: Josh. 20.7), and according to an early but dubious tradition from “Nazareth.”...

Where is Hoffman's supporting evidence?? It cannot be the NT.

People who argue that Jesus of Nazareth was a figure of history are ALL INVENTORS.

After showing that the NT is a source of Fiction and Implausibilities they simply proceed to Fabricate accounts of their Jesus WITHOUT a shred of corroboration, WITHOUT a shred of evidence.

No source of antiquity, NONE, ZERO, NIL, claimed Jesus was born in Nazareth.

Hoffman's Jesus of Nazareth is an INVENTION.

The NT is a compilation of 2nd century or later Myth Fables of Jesus the Son of God just like the Myth Fables of the Jews, Greeks and Romans.

James The Least · 12-30-2012, 09:13 AM

The ironic thing is that Hoffmann starts out by pointing to the hypocrisy and failure of Bultmann's approach: trying to separate the man from the myth.

Then he proceeds to do just what Bultmann did.

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12-30-2012, 03:30 AM	#4
Tenorikuma Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Japan Posts: 156	Essentially, he has invented a historical Jesus who lived a life roughly parallel to that of the Gospel Jesus, but for whom there is absolutely no historical evidence. Sounds like he is actually describing the historical Brian.

12-30-2012, 05:29 AM	#5
Sheshbazzar Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: On the path of knowledge Posts: 8,889	:thumbs: +1 rep

12-30-2012, 05:45 AM	#6
Bernard Muller Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Alberta, Canada Posts: 927	The oxonian Jesus! Hoffmann's Jesus is full of leaps of faith, more so in imagining Jesus' life outside his last year. Obviously, he did not make a critical study of the gospels, because he considers passage like Mk 13:2 as authentic (even justifying Jesus as having dwelled in Jerusalem for many years). Hoffmann has no methodology, just picking up whatever he needs from the gospels (all of them). Another easy target for mythicists. Another "portrait" of a scholarly charismatic historical Jesus. Another messy bit adding up to the confusion. Back to the old ways when a scholar can dream up anything and get congratulations by peers ... Cordially, Bernard

12-30-2012, 07:05 AM	#7
Steven Carr Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: England Posts: 5,629	HOFFMAN Rather than a raw political apocalypticism such as we find in the preaching of John the Baptist..... CARR Where did that come from? I must have missed John the Baptist's 'I have a dream' speech. Could somebody point me to a recording of John the Baptist's preaching?

12-30-2012, 09:13 AM	#10
James The Least Regular Member Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: USA Posts: 393	The ironic thing is that Hoffmann starts out by pointing to the hypocrisy and failure of Bultmann's approach: trying to separate the man from the myth. Then he proceeds to do just what Bultmann did.

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