Davka

I'm on permanent vacation. :devil1:

simon kole

Jesus is the one who applies his law of Mt 5:28 in Lk 11:48-51.

See his application @ http://www.freeratio.org/showpost.php?p=6835410

NO, the justification for that (i.e., Lk 11:48-51) is Jesus' law in Mt 5:28.

You didn't clear up anything. You just applied your misunderstanding to it.

Davka

Oh, yes, of course, the explanation that we are slimy disgusting worms who deserve hell because we have all sinned in our hearts.

When something which I create turns out poorly, whose fault is that? Mine, or the thing I created?

If I make a pot badly, is it my fault, or the pot's?

But the pot shall not say to the potter "why did you make me this way?" even if the potter simply made the vessel for destruction, right? Because who the hell does a sentient being think it is, complaining about having been fashioned for the express purpose of being tortured for eternity, if that's what gives glory to its creator?

Yeah, right.

- If we are sinners and God knew before creating us that we would sin, then he is wrong to punish us for his design flaw.

- If we are sinners and God did not know before he created us that we would sin, then God is not omniscient.

And please don't pretend that God's "wonderful plan" to tell perhaps 5% of humanity about Jesus so that they could avoid eternal damnation - while torturing the other 95% eternally because God couldn't be bothered to spring for a decent PR campaign - somehow makes things OK. It does not.

Christianity is an ugly, horrific, sadistic belief system masquerading as love and rainbows. The doctrine of Hell is unworthy of any being which claims to love.

Either Universalism is correct, or your "god" is a monster.

Sheshbazzar

! אמן׃

simon kole

This post, formerly #28, was mistitled. It should have been:


The Basic Doctrinal Inconsistency of the Bible

There is a basic doctrinal inconsistency in the Bible. The Calvinists adhere to one, while the Arminians adhere to the other. And what is more, both seemingly inconsistent doctrines are found in Scripture.

Examintion of the Scriptures shows that the key to understanding this seeming inconsistency in doctrine is
Dt 29:29 - "The secret things belong to the Lord our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may follow (obey) all the words of this law." God has a revealed will, and a secret will.

So is there any Biblical evidence of these two wills? Do we find anywhere in the Bible any two such wills in operation? Yes, we do.

The relationship between the secret things and the revealed things, which we are to obey, is shown in Ex 7:1-3.
In v.2, God gives his revealed will for Pharoah, "Let Israel go."
Then in v.3, God gives his secret will for Pharoah (secret to Pharoah, but not to Moses), "But I will harden his heart. . .so he will not listen to you."

NB: The first mention of Pharoah's heart in the account (v.3) is that God will harden his heart (also in Ex 4:23; Dt 2:26-30). I'll return to what "hardening the heart" by God involves.

But back to the account. Because God is sovereign, he can ordain in his secret will** that which is contrary to his revealed will.***The Scriptures at the bottom give examples of acts of God** which are diverse from his revealed will.***

Now the implications of Dt 29:29. That God's revealed will (Arminianism) to come, to repent, to believe, to be saved (Rev 22:17; Eze 18:32; Mk 1:15; Ac 2:49, 17:30; 1Tim 2:4; 2Pe 3:9, etc.); i.e., words we are to obey, are in fact disobeyed does not mean that God's secret will (Calvinism) is not done (Mt 18:7; Mk 13:7, 14:21; Jn 13:27; Ac 2:23, 4:28, 13:48; Ro 11:25; Eph 1:11).

When Scripture indicates that something happens contrary to God's will (Ex 9:17), it is contrary to God's revealed will (Ex 9:13). Nothing is contrary to God's secret will (Ex 4:21; Ps 33:10; Pr 20:24; Is 8:10, 14:24, Lam 3:37; Ac 4:28).

While Scripture shows that God's secret will for men (Ex 10:1-2, 11:910, 14:4, 17) is not always the same as his revealed will for men (Ex 9:13-16), it is his revealed will that is to govern men's actions. His secret will governs his actions. Sometimes those wills coincide, as they did for Paul (Ac 9:15-16); sometimes they do not, as they did not for Pharoah (Ex 4:21-23). But mankind will be judged by the revealed will of God (Arminianism), the words they are to obey, and not by the secret will of God (Calvinism)--Dt 29:29.

And this leads to one more consideration on the subject.
When Scripture declares what man is forbidden to do (revealed will), that is not to say God is forbidden to do it (secret will). Man is forbidden
to hate his enemies (Mt 5:44),
to withhold forgiveness (Mk 11:25),
to take revenge (Lev 19:18),
to retaliate (Lk 6:29),
to judge the hearts of others (Mt 7:1), or
to punish the sons for the sins of their fathers (Dt 24:16).

While God
hates his enemies (Ps 5:5-6, 11:5, 34:16; Pr 3:22, 11:20, 16:5; Jer 12:8),
forgives only those who repent (Mk 1:4, Lk 13:3, 24:27; Ac 3:19, 5:31),
revenges (Na 1:2; Ro 12:19; Rev 19:2),
retaliates (1Sa 15:2-3; 2Pe 2:13),
judges (1Pe 4:5), and
punishes for the sin of the fathers those sons who do not repent of those sins in their own lives (Ex 20:5; Lk 11:48-51).

The God of the Bible is sovereign.
The will of the God of the Bible is not thwarted by men (2Chr 20:6; Job 9:12, 42:2; Is 14:27; Da 4:35), but quite the contrary (Job 5:12; Ps 33:10).
Nor are the plans of the Bible's God conditioned on, or determined by, the actions of men (Ex 9:16; Ac 4:28).
Likewise, he sustains no loss because of the actions of men (Jn 6:37; Ac 13:48; Mt 5:26).

It is men, not the Bible, who present God as simply knowing "in advance" what men are going to do.
The Bible presents God as causing men to do what he wills them to do.
(See Ge 20:6; Ex 3:21; Dt 2:25, 30; Jos 11:20; 1Sa 10:9; 2Sa 24:1; 1Kgs 22:23; 1Chr 5:26; Ezr 1:1, 5, 7:27; Ne 2:12; 7:5; Pr 21:1, Eze 14:9; Da 1:9; Jn 6:37; Ac 2;23, 4;28, 13:48; Ro 9:18; 2Co 8:16; Rev 17:17).
God knows in advance what is going to happen, because he has decreed that it shall happen.

So in light of all the Scriptures, there is no basic doctrinal inconsistency in the Bible.

And now to: God hardens men's hearts.
Actually, men's hearts are hardened from birth, as the result of Adam's sin (Mk 3:5, 6:43--dulled 8:17-21, 10:5, 16:14; Mt 7:21, 13:14-15, 15:16; Lk 19:42). They have to be "unhardened" (Jn 3:3, 5-6) by God's grace. All God has to do is withdraw his softening grace in order to "harden" men's hearts, or to confirm them in their hardness.

SUMMARY: God not only is sovereign, he also acts sovereignly.
__________

**Ex 9:12; Jdg 9:23; 1Sa 18:10; 1Kgs 22:23; Eze 14:9; Mt 18:7; Mk 13:7, 14:21; Jn 13:27; Ac 2:23, 4:28; Ro 11:31-32

***Ex 9:13; Eze 18:32; Mk 1:15; Ac 17:30; 1Tim 2:4, 4:10; 2Pe 3:9
__________

The Basic Logical Inconsistency of the Bible will be presented later. (Stay tuned, Wedge.)
Sorry about the mix-up in the two natures.

Jarhyn

Which of course means ABSOLUTELY NOTHING AT ALL because the Bible itself is not consistent with reality.

The Bible cannot POSSIBLY be the revealed truth of god in it's entirity. The bible says specific events happened. A detailed and honest and unbiased examination of the universe shows that they did not. Either the universe is created to hide the true nature of what happened (that is, the universe is a LIE) or the Bible does not describe the true nature of the universe. Since the bible describes God as incapable of lying, and one of the two MUST be a lie, and both are Attributed to god, the Bible is wrong when it says cannot lie.

So nothing you pull out of the Bible is necessarily true and must be taken on the individual merits of each individual statement, and must be held against the candle of logic and reason.

dockeen

But, it get's better!

A reasonable engineer would have looked at the whole Adam and Eve situation,
said, "Well, that initial prototype didn't work out, no need to make any
more of those, since I know in advance that most would be wasted, let's
work on this a bit more"

This god didn't do this. Why?

Because he wanted that small percentage that made the cut around to
suck up to him and tell him what a great guy he is.

Sheshbazzar

'Saving' seemingly somewhat less than one person out of a million seems an incredible waste of time and effort.
And even the one's 'saved' don't merit it, they were just the lucky one's 'chosen' to receive one of Gob's rare issue extra-special Golden Tickets.

dockeen

But wait, aren't they the FEW, the PROUD, the ELECT?

Sheshbazzar

Some of them are doing their best to persuade me they are something quite different....