Freethought & Rationalism Archive

NOGO · 05-05-2005, 05:26 PM

The circle of the earth refers to the disc shaped earth with the dome of heaven upon it.

If are on flat land and follow the horizon you will see that it is in fact a circle.
The sun starts on the horizon and moves up to an apex and then does down. The trajectory is also circlular as if it was following a dome shape.
This is also true of the moon and stars.

In book of Ezekiel, Ezek sees the dome of heaven open up and he sees God on his throne.

In Daniel, Neb's dream is about a giant tree in the centre of the earth which stretches all the way to the dome of heaven and can be seen from any position on the earth (Disc shaped).

The Bible also says that the sun rises and moves from end of the heavens to the other and then rushes back to rise again.

In the verse that is quoted above (Isa 40:22) the heavens is compared to a tent.
A dome is like a tent.

Yes this verse is poetic but even poetry is based on belief and the ancient Israelites believed that the heavens was a dome above a flat disc-shaped earth.

That is why even Jesus predicted the destruction of not only the earth but also the heavens ie the dome above the earth.

judge · 05-05-2005, 06:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NOGO

The circle of the earth refers to the disc shaped earth with the dome of heaven upon it.

Ok I can follow this?

Quote:

Originally Posted by NOGO

That is why even Jesus predicted the destruction of not only the earth but also the heavens ie the dome above the earth.

I'm not sure there is reason to think they believed it was flat or that it was round.

John A. Broussard · 05-05-2005, 10:50 PM

I have four possibilities for biblical references to the "corners of the earth."

1. They refer to the equinoxes and solstices.
2. They refer to the points of the compass.
3. They refer to the cardinal points of the sacred cirle.
4. They refer to the corners of a flat and square earth.

Do I hear a fifth meaning?

mikey1987 · 05-07-2005, 06:12 PM

the earth isn't a circle; it isn't even a sphere -- it's an oblate spheroid.

i think at the very least: if the verse were indicative of the Hebrew's knowledge regarding the shape of the Earth, it merely shows that they had poor knowledge of the actual shape and/or terms to describe it.

perhaps they viewed earth as a cylinder? after all, a cylinder has two circles for surfaces. if that were to be true, it wouldn't contradict their previous assumption that the earth was indeed flat; because the top surface of a cylinder IS flat. this would also be consistant with the thought that watergates served as a celestial barrier. the watergate would be arranged in the shape of a dome over the cylinder.

this is how i see it; perhaps i am wrong though.

Jayhawker Soule · 05-08-2005, 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikey1987

the earth isn't a circle; it isn't even a sphere -- it's an oblate spheroid.

... a concept easily conveyed in Biblical Hebrew no doubt. Be that as it may, is it not also true that Sumerian/Babylonian cosmology posits the earth as a flat disc?

judge · 05-08-2005, 06:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ConsequentAtheist

... a concept easily conveyed in Biblical Hebrew no doubt. Be that as it may, is it not also true that Sumerian/Babylonian cosmology posits the earth as a flat disc?

I'b interested to know. I doubt this is the case (without really knowing).
I can undersatnd that they would have seen the heavens as spherical.

After all the stars do appear to rotate spherically.

See here . As one moves lattitude the axis of this rotation and various other measures would move which I think would be consistent with a spehrical movement.

Anyway i suspect that it would have been possible to detect that the heavens behaves like a giant rotating sphere, though whether the ancients understood this may be a matter of controversy obviously.

careful observation would also I suspect lead to the conclusion the earth was not in fact flat as well.

Asha'man · 05-09-2005, 04:44 AM

I don't see how this verse can be about anything but a flat earth, especially since it clearly brings up the idea of a tent to clarify it's meaning.

As a frequent camper, I should point out that tents are always set up on a flat section of ground. Many tents are dome shaped, which provides a circular (but flat) contact patch with the ground.

Jayhawker Soule · 05-09-2005, 04:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by judge

I'b interested to know. I doubt this is the case (without really knowing).
I can undersatnd that they would have seen the heavens as spherical.

I came across this ...

Quote:

Stargazing is as old as humanity itself. Even in prehistoric times life demanded some knowledge of the basic celestial phenomena. Early man depended exclusively on the location and movement of the heavenly bodies for navigation on both land and sea as well as for regulating the agricultural and ritual cycles of the year. However, the modern science of astronomy had its beginning in the ancient civilizations of Babylonia and Greece. The earliest were the Babylonians who, by the 8th century before the common era (BCE), had a well-established, though highly fanciful, concept of the cosmos. The Babylonians conceived the earth to be discoid or circular in shape, rising toward the center to form a single huge mountain. They also maintained that this circular earth was resting, or floating, on a great encircling ocean. This ocean was, in turn, girdled by a circular wall of mountains supporting the hemispherical vault of heaven, or the firmament as it is called. The heavenly bodies seem to have been regarded as mysterious points of light moving freely through space. With its defeat by the Persians in 539 BCE, the great Babylonian civilization ended, and its astronomical theories ended with it.

The early Greek astronomers conceived the earth to be a flat circular disk floating at the center of a hollow, rotating sphere to which the stars are attached like silver studs. However, the Greeks, then living in a relatively free society, produced some dissenters who challenged this cosmological conception. One of these dissenters was Pythagoras, a 6th century BCE mathematician and astronomer, who so far as we know, was the first to propose a spherical earth. Although there is now some suggestion that the Egyptian builders of the Great Pyramid at Gisa (c. 2550 BCE) incorporated information on the spherical shape of the Earth into the dimensions of the pyramid (Encyclopedia Britannica, 15th Edition, Vol. 6, page 1), Pythagoras is usually credited with being the first to conceive the earth to be a sphere instead of a flat, circular disk. However, Pythagoras retained the traditional concept of a geocentric or earth centered universe. In the 5th century BCE, Eudoxas, a pupil of Plato, followed the Pythagorean example. Abandoning the traditional Greek concept of a flat, circular, disk-shaped earth, but retaining the notion of geocenterism, Eudoxas proposed a spherical earth sitting serenely at the center of a rotating celestial sphere.

- see THE COPERNICAN REVOLUTION

The bottom line is this: to suggest that a primitive West Semitic people possessed a significantly more sophisticated astronomy than did their more established neighbors requires a true leap of faith.

John A. Broussard · 05-09-2005, 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ConsequentAtheist

The bottom line is this: to suggest that a primitive West Semitic people possessed a significantly more sophisticated astronomy than did their more established neighbors requires a true leap of faith.

You're ignoring the fact that faith is like superman. No building is too tall. I even have one bible inerrantist stating that the sun stood still back in the day of Joshua, period. I'm now trying to get him to explain how the old geocentric system changed to the new heliocentric one.

I haven't gotten into the flatness of the earth yet, but I bet I'll find someone insisting that it was flat then and gradually folded up into the sphere we have today. Lucky for us we didn't become a mobius strip.

Jayhawker Soule · 05-09-2005, 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John A. Broussard

I'm now trying to get him to explain how the old geocentric system changed to the new heliocentric one.

Talk to Einstein - all centrics are created relatively equal.

Quote:

Originally Posted by John A. Broussard

I haven't gotten into the flatness of the earth yet, but I bet I'll find someone insisting that it was flat then and gradually folded up into the sphere we have today.

Which brings us to the inflatonary theory ...

05-09-2005, 04:44 AM	#17
Asha'man Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: southeast Posts: 2,526	Dome Shaped Tent I don't see how this verse can be about anything but a flat earth, especially since it clearly brings up the idea of a tent to clarify it's meaning. As a frequent camper, I should point out that tents are always set up on a flat section of ground. Many tents are dome shaped, which provides a circular (but flat) contact patch with the ground.

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05-05-2005, 05:26 PM	#11
NOGO Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Canada Posts: 1,562	The circle of the earth refers to the disc shaped earth with the dome of heaven upon it. If are on flat land and follow the horizon you will see that it is in fact a circle. The sun starts on the horizon and moves up to an apex and then does down. The trajectory is also circlular as if it was following a dome shape. This is also true of the moon and stars. In book of Ezekiel, Ezek sees the dome of heaven open up and he sees God on his throne. In Daniel, Neb's dream is about a giant tree in the centre of the earth which stretches all the way to the dome of heaven and can be seen from any position on the earth (Disc shaped). The Bible also says that the sun rises and moves from end of the heavens to the other and then rushes back to rise again. In the verse that is quoted above (Isa 40:22) the heavens is compared to a tent. A dome is like a tent. Yes this verse is poetic but even poetry is based on belief and the ancient Israelites believed that the heavens was a dome above a flat disc-shaped earth. That is why even Jesus predicted the destruction of not only the earth but also the heavens ie the dome above the earth.

05-05-2005, 10:50 PM	#13
John A. Broussard Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Hawaii Posts: 6,629	I have four possibilities for biblical references to the "corners of the earth." 1. They refer to the equinoxes and solstices. 2. They refer to the points of the compass. 3. They refer to the cardinal points of the sacred cirle. 4. They refer to the corners of a flat and square earth. Do I hear a fifth meaning?

05-07-2005, 06:12 PM	#14
mikey1987 Regular Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: CT Posts: 113	the earth isn't a circle; it isn't even a sphere -- it's an oblate spheroid. i think at the very least: if the verse were indicative of the Hebrew's knowledge regarding the shape of the Earth, it merely shows that they had poor knowledge of the actual shape and/or terms to describe it. perhaps they viewed earth as a cylinder? after all, a cylinder has two circles for surfaces. if that were to be true, it wouldn't contradict their previous assumption that the earth was indeed flat; because the top surface of a cylinder IS flat. this would also be consistant with the thought that watergates served as a celestial barrier. the watergate would be arranged in the shape of a dome over the cylinder. this is how i see it; perhaps i am wrong though.

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