Freethought & Rationalism Archive

stephan huller · 04-01-2012, 03:49 PM

Sebastian Brock has drawn people's attention to the importance of fire and water mixing in the baptism of Jesus Yet there are always goofballs who will say that this concept is only as old as the oldest manuscript that witnesses the idea. Of course this is stupid. The very fact that something heretical has survived in Christianity is a miracle. Nevertheless I think I finally found incontrovertible proof it went back to the time of Irenaeus.

Look at this reference in Jacob of Serugh (c. 6th century):

Quote:

(Christ), the coal of fire [Isa 6:6], went down to wash in (Jordan's) streams

Sounds strange until you realize that the the first century magician Anaxilaus is said to have done the very same thing inside of a cup of water http://books.google.com/books?id=k3O...0water&f=false. Here's the reference from Pliny:

Quote:

Anaxilaus even made a sport with it by putting some in a cup of wine and placing a hot coal underneath and handing it round at dinnerparties, when by its reflection as it flared up it threw on their faces a dreadful pallor as if they were dead [Pliny Natural Science Book 9]

Why does this matter? Because the Marcosians (and the anonymous heretics in the anonymous treatise on baptism) do the very same thing. If you just read Irenaeus you would literally think the heretics simply did the same thing as Anaxilaus:

Quote:

For, joining the buffooneries of Anaxilaus to the craftiness of the magi, as they are called, he is regarded by his senseless and cracked-brain followers as working miracles by these means. Pretending to consecrate cups mixed with wine, and protracting to great length the word of invocation, he contrives to give them a purple and reddish colour, so that Charis, who is one of those that are superior to all things, should be thought to drop her own blood into that cup through means of his invocation, and that thus those who are present should be led to rejoice to taste of that cup, in order that, by so doing, the Charis, who is set forth by this magician, may also flow into them.

For centuries scholars have been misled by this reference to think that the heretics exactly copied the 'cup trick' of Anaxilaus in their Eucharist. But Irenaeus is ill informed. The original reference is clearly what appears in the Anonymous Treatise on Baptism where the burning coal in water allusion is clearly a fire baptism rite:

Quote:

For because John said that we must be baptized in the Holy Ghost and in fire, from the fact that he went on to say and fire, some desperate men have dared to such an extent to carry their depravity, and therefore very crafty men seek how they can thus corrupt and violate, and even neutralize the baptism of holiness. Who derive the origin of their notion from Simon Magus, practising it with manifold perversity through various errors; to whom Simon Peter, in the Acts of the Apostles, said, Your money perish with you, because you have thought that the grace of God could be possessed by money; you have neither part nor lot in this work; for your heart is not right with God. Acts 8:20-21 And such men as these do all these things in the desire to deceive those who are more simple or more inquisitive. And some of them try to argue that they only administer a sound and perfect, not as we, a mutilated and curtailed baptism, which they are in such wise said to designate, that immediately they have descended into the water, fire at once appears upon the water. Which if it can be effected by any trick, as several tricks of this kind are affirmed to be— of Anaxilaus— whether it is anything natural, by means of which this may happen, or whether they think that they behold this, or whether the work and magical poison of some malignant being can force fire from the water; still they declare such a deceit and artifice to be a perfect baptism, which if faithful men have been forced to receive, there will assuredly be no doubt but that they have lost that which they had.

Yet even those Irenaeus and the anonymous author wrote at the beginning of the third century the original context is still preserved in the Syriac writings of Jacob of Serugh - when Jesus came to the water he was like a burning coal. The description of fire coming from the water was in the gospel of Justin.

stephan huller · 04-01-2012, 03:57 PM

For those who are interested, the term for coal רִצְפָּ֑ה comes from שָׂרַף (= seraph) which is both the name of a type of angel and the word for flame/burn. The alleged Church Father 'Ignatius' is derived from this term.

stephan huller · 04-01-2012, 04:00 PM

I also just noticed that the connection between 'coal' and 'seraph' is present in Isaiah 6:6 which is the source of the imagery in Christian baptism:

Quote:

Then one of the seraphim flew to me, having in his hand a burning coal that he had taken with tongs from the altar.

Was Jesus then originally understood as an angelic seraph?

stephan huller · 04-01-2012, 04:04 PM

I am starting to think that this baptism tradition essentially proves that Jesus was supernatural. He basically goes to the Jordan, John thinks he is going to baptize him and then all these flames shoot up from the water. Maybe the early liturgical practices took a piece of coal or sulphur or magnesium and dropped it in the water as a reenactment. But Jesus is all fire.

sotto voce · 04-01-2012, 05:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

I also just noticed that the connection between 'coal' and 'seraph' is present in Isaiah 6:6 which is the source of the imagery in Christian baptism

The purification of divine fire goes back to Sinai, when law was given to demonstrate divine dissatisfaction with wickedness among rebellious people. This part of Isaiah is to do with prophetic utterance, purification of lips as symbolising purification of the prophet, that applied in particular to Isaiah. A Babylonian diviner wiped his mouth with resin (that hydrocarbon connexion, again) before delivering his message. So this purification was to allow Isaiah to speak, again among rebellious people, and his rapid answer, "I will go! Send me!" reflects his realisation of that. It does not mean that the sins of Isaiah were actually atoned for by a coal in a vision. There is another dynamic here.

However, it's true that conversion involves the 'fire' of repentance, so the purifying principle is common to both concepts. It's perhaps of interest that the flames of Pentecost were in the form of spreading tongues, rather than lips, signifying the active purifying nature of the gospel that was to be spoken by those 'purified' disciples, and indeed by all Christians, one way or another.

Quote:

Was Jesus then originally understood as an angelic seraph?

Jesus was eventually understood as sending a vision of the seraph to the prophet. Though of course, the burning sacrifices of Israel represented the penalty applied to Jesus.

arnoldo · 04-01-2012, 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

I am starting to think that this baptism tradition essentially proves that Jesus was supernatural. He basically goes to the Jordan, John thinks he is going to baptize him and then all these flames shoot up from the water. Maybe the early liturgical practices took a piece of coal or sulphur or magnesium and dropped it in the water as a reenactment. But Jesus is all fire.

Are you writing this because it's April 1st

. If not, perhaps the Preaching of Paul, cited in Anonymous Treatise on Baptism supports your hypothesis which states,

Quote:

The Preaching of Paul; in which book, contrary to all Scriptures, you will find both Christ confessing His own sin— although He alone did no sin at all— and almost compelled by His mother Mary unwillingly to receive John's baptism. Also, that when He was baptized, fire was seen to be upon the water, which is written in neither of the Gospels.

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0515.htm

stephan huller · 04-02-2012, 11:30 PM

Fire and water in the creation of Adam according to Marqe (in a discussion of fire and water mixing during the crossing of the Red Sea:

Quote:

Greatness was seen in that place; water and fire were combined. This was a tremendous wonder, far exceeding anything, that water and fire should appear there. The dominion of the water was brought low and that of the fire overcome. The mighty act of Adam's creation was there made known, for water and fire were combined in that too. Adam's body was from the dust, and the fire brought great power and wisdom into him. From the beginning he was borne by spirit, and from it wisdom dwelt in his mind.

Thanks be to this King whose glory magnifies the Speaker.
Blessed the hour in which He created Adam, when Adam filled the whole world with praises to the Lord of the world.
Blessed the hour in which water and fire were combined in the Red Sea.
Blessed the hour in which water and fire combined for the destruction of the unbelievers.
The world radiated in the presence of the True One, who appeared for the sake of His beloved. Good is the True One and good are His beloved. Blessed was the world when He appeared! Let us be sincere before Him and give thanks for His greatness, perchance we may be worthy of this (Mimar Marqe 2:8)

stephan huller · 04-02-2012, 11:33 PM

Another passage:

Its (Mt Gerizim) name was formerly The Mountain of the East (Gen. x. 30). The reason for the name The Mountain of the East is simply that it and the Garden of Eden are twins. They were revealed when the dry land was uncovered, whence the Form of Adam whom God created from the dust of the Goodly Mount, was developed. Adam is the best thing in creation; the Goodly Mount is the best part of the dry land. The body of Adam was created by God and perfected with holy spirit and a living soul. It began in a holy
place on a holy day. Every best thing is appointed to be holy; there can be nothing foul in it. The property of every best thing that is set apart by the hands of men is that it is made great and glorified by the command of the Holy One. (Mimar Marqe 2:10)

stephan huller · 04-02-2012, 11:40 PM

04-02-2012, 11:46 PM	#10
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	Marqe says that Moses "was vested with the Form [1] which Adam cast off in the Garden of Eden; and his face shone up to the day of his death." (Mimar Marqe 5.4) This is a profoundly Christian concept (Americans just don't know what Christianity is) [1] in manuscript tradition A = 'light' for its usual rendering 'face'.

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04-01-2012, 03:57 PM	#2
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	For those who are interested, the term for coal רִצְפָּ֑ה comes from שָׂרַף (= seraph) which is both the name of a type of angel and the word for flame/burn. The alleged Church Father 'Ignatius' is derived from this term.

04-01-2012, 04:04 PM	#4
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	I am starting to think that this baptism tradition essentially proves that Jesus was supernatural. He basically goes to the Jordan, John thinks he is going to baptize him and then all these flames shoot up from the water. Maybe the early liturgical practices took a piece of coal or sulphur or magnesium and dropped it in the water as a reenactment. But Jesus is all fire.

04-02-2012, 11:33 PM	#8
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	Another passage: Its (Mt Gerizim) name was formerly The Mountain of the East (Gen. x. 30). The reason for the name The Mountain of the East is simply that it and the Garden of Eden are twins. They were revealed when the dry land was uncovered, whence the Form of Adam whom God created from the dust of the Goodly Mount, was developed. Adam is the best thing in creation; the Goodly Mount is the best part of the dry land. The body of Adam was created by God and perfected with holy spirit and a living soul. It began in a holy place on a holy day. Every best thing is appointed to be holy; there can be nothing foul in it. The property of every best thing that is set apart by the hands of men is that it is made great and glorified by the command of the Holy One. (Mimar Marqe 2:10)

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