Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Ray Moscow · 01-04-2008, 07:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jedi Mind Trick

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

The Buddha is supposed to have fasted until he reached enlightenment, and realized that he had to eat. That's why you see statues of the Buddha as a fat, jolly man with a big belly.

Are you sure about this? The Laughing Buddha is not Siddhartha Gautama. See this wiki.
Gautama Buddha preached the "Middle Way" between deprivation and licentiousness.

As I recall, Siddhartha fasted for a long time, but he broke fast before achieving enlightment (to the considerable disappointment of his fellow ascetics).

And you're right that the fat, laughing Buddha is another person.

Jeffrey Gibson · 01-04-2008, 07:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ray Moscow

Yes, but Jesus also fasted during his desert "initiation". That's the main ascetic element in his story.

Is Jesus' "fasting" in the Matthean and Lukan (but not the Markan) versions of the wilderness "testing" story (and strictly speaking it is only Matthew who uses the technical tern "fasting") really an expression of (and remembrance of an an engagement in) conscious asceticism on Jesus' part? Or is the notice of Jesus "fasting" something that is intended to make the narrative point that Jesus' being led into, and being "tested" in, the wilderness, is a recapitulation of the wilderness testing experience to which Israel was subjected when it was "led" into the wilderness and was "made hungry" so that it might learn that "man does not live by bread alone" and that one should not put God to the test, but give allegiance to him alone?

In any case is the Jewish -- or even the early Christian -- practice of fasting really something that was undertaken for ascetic reasons?

Jeffrey

Jeffrey Gibson · 01-04-2008, 07:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ray Moscow

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jedi Mind Trick

Are you sure about this? The Laughing Buddha is not Siddhartha Gautama. See this wiki.
Gautama Buddha preached the "Middle Way" between deprivation and licentiousness.

As I recall, Siddhartha fasted for a long time, but he broke fast before achieving enlightment (to the considerable disappointment of his fellow ascetics)

In fact, the biographical traditions take pains to indicate that his renunciation of asceticism and his restoring himself to health through (moderate) eating was the necessary precondition of his being able to engage in the endeavours that led to his enligtenment.

Jeffrey

Ray Moscow · 01-04-2008, 08:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ray Moscow

Yes, but Jesus also fasted during his desert "initiation". That's the main ascetic element in his story.

Is Jesus' "fasting" in the Matthean and Lukan (but not the Markan) versions of the wilderness "testing" story (and strictly speaking it is only Matthew who uses the technical tern "fasting") really an expression of (and remembrance of an an engagement in) conscious asceticism on Jesus' part? Or is the notice of Jesus "fasting" something that is intended to make the narrative point that Jesus' being led into, and being "tested" in, the wilderness, is a recapitulation of the wilderness testing experience to which Israel was subjected when it was "led" into the wilderness and was "made hungry" so that it might learn that "man does not live by bread alone" and that one should not put God to the test, but give allegiance to him alone?

In any case is the Jewish -- or even the early Christian -- practice of fasting really something that was undertaken for ascetic reasons?

Jeffrey

I suppose the whole thing is a midrash on Exodus 34:28:

Quote:

And he [Moses] was there with the LORD forty days and forty
nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote
upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten
commandments.

Toto · 01-04-2008, 08:34 AM

I stand corrected on the Buddha. That's what happens when you rely on folk tales.

I notice that there is more on the wilderness temptation in Temptations Of Jesus In Early Christianity by Jeffrey Gibson, previewed on Amazon.

Ray Moscow · 01-04-2008, 08:51 AM

Damn! I keep forgetting that Jeffrey is a real scholar.

Jeffrey Gibson · 01-04-2008, 08:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ray Moscow

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson

Is Jesus' "fasting" in the Matthean and Lukan (but not the Markan) versions of the wilderness "testing" story (and strictly speaking it is only Matthew who uses the technical tern "fasting") really an expression of (and remembrance of an an engagement in) conscious asceticism on Jesus' part? Or is the notice of Jesus "fasting" something that is intended to make the narrative point that Jesus' being led into, and being "tested" in, the wilderness, is a recapitulation of the wilderness testing experience to which Israel was subjected when it was "led" into the wilderness and was "made hungry" so that it might learn that "man does not live by bread alone" and that one should not put God to the test, but give allegiance to him alone?

In any case is the Jewish -- or even the early Christian -- practice of fasting really something that was undertaken for ascetic reasons?

Jeffrey

I suppose the whole thing is a midrash on Exodus 34:28:

Quote:

And he [Moses] was there with the LORD forty days and forty
nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote
upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten
commandments.

Possibly (even granting the validity of what seems to be your sense of what Midrash is), especially for Matthew who is intent to present Jesus as the new Moses. But not for Luke. In any case, the language and themes of Matt. 4:1-2 and Luke 4:1-2 is far more reminiscent of Deuteronomy 6-8, and especially Deut. 8:2-4 than of anything in Exodus.

Jeffrey

Ray Moscow · 01-04-2008, 08:59 AM

Good food for thought, and I need to think on this and re-read those scriptures.

Any chance on lowering the price on your book on this subject?

One more question: do you not take Luke's account of the desert initiation as a reworking of Matthew's?

Jeffrey Gibson · 01-04-2008, 09:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ray Moscow

Good food for thought, and I need to think on this and re-read those scriptures.

Any chance on lowering the price on your book on this subject?

I wish I had the power to do so. Do I get any credit for being somewhat responsible for getting the publisher of the Sheffield series to bring the JSNST series out in paperback editions and thus making books in the series available for about half the hardback price?

BTW, the book is available really cheaply at:

http://www.biblio.com/books/27148849.html

and:

http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/Book...sbn=1850755396

Jeffrey

Toto · 01-04-2008, 09:11 AM

The book is reviewed here.

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01-04-2008, 08:34 AM	#15
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	I stand corrected on the Buddha. That's what happens when you rely on folk tales. I notice that there is more on the wilderness temptation in Temptations Of Jesus In Early Christianity by Jeffrey Gibson, previewed on Amazon.

01-04-2008, 08:51 AM	#16
Ray Moscow Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Surrey, England Posts: 1,255	Damn! I keep forgetting that Jeffrey is a real scholar.

01-04-2008, 08:59 AM	#18
Ray Moscow Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Surrey, England Posts: 1,255	Good food for thought, and I need to think on this and re-read those scriptures. Any chance on lowering the price on your book on this subject? One more question: do you not take Luke's account of the desert initiation as a reworking of Matthew's?

01-04-2008, 09:11 AM	#20
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	The book is reviewed here.

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