sotto voce

It's more to perpetuate the notion that Jesus had special physiognomy. The idea that 'God, with us' was indistinguishable from a Palestinian artisan is unwelcome in low places.

Interesting concept that. House churches— Syria, Cyrene, Parthia, Puteoli, here, there, every darn where. This term must refer to people, not buildings. Now, bones, not stones. How do archaeologists determine that bones were Christian? It would take more than ¹⁴C, surely.

Nothing strange about it. Nothing strange at all.

Shrouds and stuff are just a tiny part of the Grand Impious Forgery— if an interesting one. More commonplace examples of impious forgery are to be found much closer to home, even if home is China. Many Westerners cannot travel more than a mile or so without observing impious forgery, sticking up like a sore point.

One would need better than trucks.

'"Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'"' Mt 7:22-23 NIV

Many, note. The Bible is full of understatement. 'Most a pack of lies.

Many, many, many, many, mene, mene.

Roger Pearse

Possibly he may have also used an earlier writer of history of the period; although I don't know what sort of studies exist on Tacitus' sources.

In principle I agree. Jesus as such was insignificant. Governors could do pretty much what they liked unless someone complained, as Verres found. Their job was to keep the peace and keep the taxes coming in.

People tend to forget that the Roman empire was not a centralised modern state, and the paperwork that a modern state would require was unnecessary even a century ago.

But I wonder whether Pilate, in this case, might indeed have written a letter to Tiberius (rather as Pliny wrote to Trajan), notifying him of the circumstances. The special reason for which he might have been well-advised to do so, is that the Jewish leadership got their way by threatening to report Pilate to his boss. Self-protection might dictate (depends on so many factors) that Pilate write a letter to Tiberius affirming his loyalty, but advising the suspicious emperor that an attempt was being made to suborn his officials by threats of false accusations in Rome? I think if someone threatened to report me to my boss -- for anything -- I would at least prepare the boss for such a complaint.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

stephan huller

fwiw rabbinic sources say Jesus was close to the imperial government

andrewcriddle

Hi Roger

You raise an interesting point, but I wonder whether such a letter would be filed in such a way that it could be located decades later.

Pliny's correspondence with Trajan suggests that the imperial bureaucracy in Trajan's time had severe difficulty locating medium importance official letters from the period before Domitian became Emperor.

Andrew Criddle

aa5874

So, how was this LETTER from Pilate to Tiberius located??? The contents of the letter does even NOT agree with the short-ending gMark.

Letter of Pilate to Tiberius

Roger Pearse

A very good point. Yes, I remember those letters in book X too. There are two issues; whether Pilate ever wrote one; and, if he did, whether it would still be accessible decades later.

On the second point, I think it seems questionable whether they would still be around. Compilations of imperial rescripts must have been made, since these sort of things appear in the late imperial digests -- and indeed, obviously, it would ease the clerks' jobs to make them. But a letter of that kind? Doubtless it *was* preserved while Tiberius was alive. Pilate himself would keep a copy, just as Pliny kept copies of his letters to Trajan.

I think one would have to do some kind of literature search to see what kind of material could be referenced from the tabularia, and by whom. But from the RE, there's precious little data.

Thinking about this data ... certificates of free birth, which we know existed in tabularia ... these must be preserved for decades to be of much value; so a process for longer term preservation must have existed. Of some sort.

In all of this, I try to remember that the Roman empire was not a modern western state, that its officials did not subscribe to the protestant work-ethic, that the state had no means of mass communication better than coins and proclamations, nor of speedy travel. Western states can and do preserve immense amounts of data, and the people living in them and controlling them have the mindset of the Victorian era towards such data. No ancient person, including emperors, was in any position to do that, nor think like that if he had.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Roger Pearse

Here's a thought. If such a letter had existed, would not its best chance of preservation be in something like Pliny's letters? E.g. "Letters of Pontius Pilate", book 10?!

Or, perhaps more likely -- I am speculating in all this -- as a quoted document in some now lost history of the period of Tiberius?

Or, more likely than verbatim quotation in one of these lost histories, some narrative which mentions that Pilate wrote something to Tiberius about some miracle worker, rather along the lines of the TF?

We know from Aulus Gellius how material of the Old Latin era was excitedly pursued under the Antonines, some 200 years later. Gellius refers to manuscripts owned by Vergil's family; or an old copy of the now lost "Annals" of Fabius Pictor, yellow with age.

99% of all ancient literature is lost. Juvenal reminds us how people scribbled away in that period. It is surely possible that some scribbler of the period did find something interesting in an archive, while Tiberius was yet alive; and that his composition was preserved rather longer than the records of accusation, delation, and self-defence from that unhappy period of imperial misgovernment? Most of those letters might have been quietly burned once Gaius became emperor; for in whose interest could their preservation be? And how many people must have yearned for their destruction? Including members of the senatorial class, holding priesthoods of Saturn?

Just speculation, of course.

Equally possible is the early composition of something like the "Acts of Paul", which references some fictional document; and that Justin references this, in good faith -- ancient writers had no easy way to verify sources -- and Tertullian borrows from Justin on this.

Or ... the stuff may still have been there in the archives. Lactantius tells us that book 7 the "De officiis proconsularis" of Ulpian consisted of decrees relating to how Christians should be punished. Unless this was made up entirely of recent enactments, it must have contained material from Nero onwards (however/if Nero created the illegal status of Christianity).

All speculation, of course.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Sarpedon

That's a fish? It looks like an amphora to me.

Did fish wear clown noses in biblical times?

andrewcriddle

This is most unlikely to be an authentic letter.

Andrew Criddle

Adam

It's not your style, aa,
To present a text and expect us to understand that it is sarcasm.
So you're presenting this forgery as authentic?