Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Malachi151 · 05-27-2006, 12:01 PM

I've been looking for info on the oldest churches. From what I know one of the oldest churches established was established in India, outside the Roman Empire, but I can't find any info on these churches and what teachings and images they might have had.

This church was persecuted under the Catholics when India was colonized by the Europeans and much of their works were destroyed from what I can tell, but again, this info I can find on this is scant.

I have found lots of articles on a church found in 2005 in Israel from the 3rd century, but not much details.

This is the so called Megiddo church.

Christians haev been all exicted about it as a confirmation of their religion,k but I have seen little or no deatils about the finds there, only that it contains mosaics of fish and a Greek text that says "The God Jesus Christ", as well as a text that states it was comissioned by a Roman officer.

This all seems very odd to me, and I don't see how any of it supports traditional Christian views.

I'd like to see the full text of what has been found in the church, but I can't find that info. There are no crosses in the church, BTW, or images of Jesus of course.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...st_church.html

http://www.cjnews.com/viewarticle.asp?id=7771

http://www.theepochtimes.com/news/5-11-6/34278.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.../ixportal.html

From everything I read though, this says "the oldes church in 'the Holy Land'", so are there still older phisical churches from outside the Holy Land, possibly in Asia?

mountainman · 05-27-2006, 06:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malachi151

I've been looking for info on the oldest churches.
...(trim)...
This all seems very odd to me, and I don't see how any of it supports traditional Christian views.

It does not support traditional views whatsoever, and my recommendation
is that at least some objective and scientific analysis should now
entertain the hypothesis that Christianity and its archeology are a
both a Constantinian phenomenom, and appeared on the planet no
earlier than the fourth century.

It's quite a simple concept, if for one objective moment,
you are able to suspend the conditioned disbelief of it.

Best wishes,

Pete Brown

premjan · 05-27-2006, 09:48 PM

Wasn't there a church of St. James in Palestine that was very old?

andrewcriddle · 05-28-2006, 06:24 AM

The oldest surviving physical remains of a church are probably the church at Dura-Europos in (I think) modern Iraq, excavated in the 1920s and 1930s.

The building was converted to a church in the 240's and destroyed with much of the rest of the town in 256 by the Sassanians.

Andrew Criddle

Rymmie1981 · 05-28-2006, 08:15 AM

I think that the problem most will run into when looking for older churches in Palestine and the Roman Empire in general is the Biblical claim that the church were held in the houses of the church members. Organized church building probably wouldn't have been built until the late second or early third centuries if you give thaty claim any validity. The founding members of the church would have to die out, then their successors would have to die out, then the reformers would come in and try to make a grab for power. I don't think it would look any different than what we see now.

Then, once they decided to move out of the homes, you have to think of what buildings they would use? If they were anything like the churches of today, they wouldn't have a huge amount of money, so they would move into an warehouse or storefront like a lot of smaller chruches do today. Then, much later, they would have the money and power to buy the land to erect their own buildings.

Now, this is all assuming that the account of the church in Acts is correct. We have many reasons to believe it is not correct which throws open the door to many possibilities. However, I think enough work has been done in verifying the age of the Pauline letters and the gospels to discount a date as late as the fourth century. I wouldn't be surprised to see a date of the early to mid-second century which would be similar to the church found in Iraq. The problem is that those who didn't want the truth to come out about the founding of Christianity for the last two thousand years did a good job of covering their tracks. We may never know for sure.

judge · 05-28-2006, 04:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malachi151

I've been looking for info on the oldest churches. From what I know one of the oldest churches established was established in India, outside the Roman Empire, but I can't find any info on these churches and what teachings and images they might have had.

This church was persecuted under the Catholics when India was colonized by the Europeans and much of their works were destroyed from what I can tell, but again, this info I can find on this is scant.

This Church is probably related to the Church of the East.

Quote:

Separated from the rest of Christendom by their extreme isolation, the Nestorians (sic) have preserved many of the traditions of the early church which have either disappeared altogether elsewhere or else survived only in the most unrecognizable forms. Their legends are fragments of fossilized early Christian folklore, while the Eucharistic rite (liturgy), the Anaphora of the Apostles Addai and Mari, is the oldest Christian liturgy in use anywhere in the world." (William Dalrymple, From the Holy Mountain: A Journey Among the Christians of the Middle East., New York: Henry Holt & Co., 1997, pg. 141

The COE liturgy is very ancient. It does not contain the words of the institution "...this is my body" , which appears in all liturgies by late 2nd cent.

mountainman · 05-28-2006, 11:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

The oldest surviving physical remains of a church are probably the church at Dura-Europos in (I think) modern Iraq, excavated in the 1920s and 1930s.

The building was converted to a church in the 240's and destroyed with much of the rest of the town in 256 by the Sassanians.

Andrew Criddle

http://www.mountainman.com.au/essenes/article_072.htm

In addition to the information that the above page collects
in refutation that the house church at Dura Europa represents
a pre-Nicaean relic of "the tribe of christians" the following
text needs to be added.

After passing though the vicinity of Dura Europa with the entire
Roman army c.363 CE (April), Julian's army fell back from the
Persian frontier to the ROman empire, without proper order
due to the fact that Julian was killed in battle.

It would be expected therefore the outward route via Dura Europa
may have been used to fall back, and that a further and more
extended opportunity would have existed for fragments of manuscripts
and/or the graffiti to have been deposited at the deserted town.

Consequently, with the Meggido prison evidence as related to
"the tribe of christians" being presently dated to circa 325 CE,
to my knowledge there are no other archeological data to give
a date to the appearance of the phenomenom of christianity
before the fourth century.

Pete Brown

Didymus · 05-29-2006, 12:06 PM

I've read reports that say the church at Megiddo is "of Byzantine origin." Does anyone know what evidence supports that conclusion? And, by Byzantine, is it meant that the decorations etc. could not have been of Jewish Christian origin?

There is no archeological evidence of earlier Christians in Palestine, Jewish or gentile. I think it's likely that, contra Luke, there was no Jesus and no Christians in Palestine during the 1st Christianity. The religion began in the Diaspora and didn't actually reach Palestine until the 3rd century, except perhaps for a few Christians (Paul's "pillars"?) who set up shop in Jerusalem and awaited the return of their savior.

Didymus

Toto · 05-29-2006, 12:57 PM

This may be of interest:

Megiddo

Quote:

Originally Posted by Laurie Brink

Having spent five seasons as a senior staff member on the Combined Caesarea Expeditions, I am familiar with the archaeological penchant for early dating. Prof. Jodi Magness (UNC-Chapel Hill) has shown how the overzealous dating of coins placed the synagogues in Capernaum and Sardis more than a hundred years earlier than their actual construction. Those of us who work with ancient materials (texts or artifacts) do a disservice if we make them compete for chronological pride of place. Similarly, a preference for uniqueness can lead to a dismissal of important artifacts that are found in abundance.

The date and uniqueness of the Megiddo structure must thus be viewed in context if we are to discover its potential for revealing new information or confirming known information about the places, people, and practices of Christianity in the East.

For some, the most meaningful feature at Megiddo is the presence in the northern inscription of a centurion by the name of Gaianos, also known as Porphyrio, who is called "our brother," and who made the mosaic with his own money. Archaeologists are puzzled that a Roman centurion was the benefactor, seeing this as uniquely bold for a representative of an Empire that until the Edit of Milan in 313 CE did not view Christianity as a licit religion.

But the potential uniqueness of Gaianos' benefaction pales if one dates the structure post-Edit. The current third or fourth century date has been based on epigraphical features, letterforms, and wording. The remains found under the mosaic will provide a more reliable date for the structure, though archaeologists remain confident about the early dating. Gaianos' benefaction and membership is no less interesting for the study of early Christianity if his affiliation is in the fourth and not the third century.

Haaretz

Quote:

"The images and writing on the floor, and the pottery and ceramics found adjacent to it, lead us to the conclusion that we uncovered a floor of a public structure that served ritual purposes," Tefer says. "We are not entirely sure that we can call this a church, because we have never uncovered a church in Israel that was built before the year 325 and we simply do not know how churches built here at that time looked."

The year 325 is when Christianity was declared the official religion in the Roman Empire. Until then, the Christians in Palestine, as in the rest of the empire, were compelled to carry out the rituals of their religion in secret.

Fish and tables
There are four pictures and three Greek inscriptions on the floor discovered at Megiddo. Based on these findings, IAA archaeologists assume that these are the remains of a church that dates back before the year 325. Prof. Leah Di Segni, an expert on ancient inscriptions from the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, who deciphered and translated the texts found at Megiddo, supports their assumption, but also stated that a more precise dating could only be done after additional remains are uncovered.

Additional artifacts are apparently buried under the stratum where the floor was found. Di Segni has determined that the formulation of the inscriptions and the form of their letters testify to the fact that they were written prior to the declaration of Christianity as a legitimate religion in the Roman Empire.

According to the IAA, one of the inscriptions mentions the name of a woman: "Akeptus, the devout, dedicated the table to God, Jesus Christ, as a memorial." IAA officials explain that the fact that the inscription mentions a "table" and not an "altar" indicates that it was written when Christianity operated "underground" and conducted its rituals around simple tables rather than altars, as was customary thereafter. The fact that fish are pictured on the floor and not crosses also testifies to its antiquity: At the beginning of the fourth century, fish were still used as the main symbol of Christianity.

Comment by Philip Harland

Quote:

These latter statements regarding secretive or underground activities are somewhat misleading if applied generally to Christians in the Roman empire. It was only in specific periods of persecution by the Roman state in 250 CE (under emperor Decius) and then from 303-305 CE (under emperor Diocletian) that Christians were actively sought by the Roman authorities. In general, there was no need for Christians to engage in their activities “in secret”, though they were not fully “public” either. Though they were disliked (and locally persecuted from time to time by fellow-inhabitants) for their failure to honour the gods of the Greeks and Romans, Christian groups, like many pagan groups or associations, lived their lives largely unbothered by Roman authorities unless they were involved in larger civic unrest or riots.

Comments on the epigraphy

So, in short, archeologists like to push their dating to an earlier time, for reasons of prestige and gaining attention. The church at Megiddo may or may not date to before or after 325, but it would be prudent to wait for further evaluation of evidence before saying anything.

I gather that later remains on the site can be linked to the adjacent Byzantine city of Maximianopolis.

Malachi151 · 05-30-2006, 03:19 AM

Thanks, this is good info. I'd still like to find complete translations of all the inscriptions in the Megiddo church.

05-27-2006, 12:01 PM	#1
Malachi151 Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Colorado Posts: 8,674	Oldest known church I've been looking for info on the oldest churches. From what I know one of the oldest churches established was established in India, outside the Roman Empire, but I can't find any info on these churches and what teachings and images they might have had. This church was persecuted under the Catholics when India was colonized by the Europeans and much of their works were destroyed from what I can tell, but again, this info I can find on this is scant. I have found lots of articles on a church found in 2005 in Israel from the 3rd century, but not much details. This is the so called Megiddo church. Christians haev been all exicted about it as a confirmation of their religion,k but I have seen little or no deatils about the finds there, only that it contains mosaics of fish and a Greek text that says "The God Jesus Christ", as well as a text that states it was comissioned by a Roman officer. This all seems very odd to me, and I don't see how any of it supports traditional Christian views. I'd like to see the full text of what has been found in the church, but I can't find that info. There are no crosses in the church, BTW, or images of Jesus of course. http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...st_church.html http://www.cjnews.com/viewarticle.asp?id=7771 http://www.theepochtimes.com/news/5-11-6/34278.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.../ixportal.html From everything I read though, this says "the oldes church in 'the Holy Land'", so are there still older phisical churches from outside the Holy Land, possibly in Asia?

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05-27-2006, 09:48 PM	#3
premjan Obsessed Contributor Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: NJ Posts: 61,538	Wasn't there a church of St. James in Palestine that was very old?

05-28-2006, 06:24 AM	#4
andrewcriddle Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Birmingham UK Posts: 4,876	The oldest surviving physical remains of a church are probably the church at Dura-Europos in (I think) modern Iraq, excavated in the 1920s and 1930s. The building was converted to a church in the 240's and destroyed with much of the rest of the town in 256 by the Sassanians. Andrew Criddle

05-28-2006, 08:15 AM	#5
Rymmie1981 Regular Member Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: At the Edge of the River Posts: 499	I think that the problem most will run into when looking for older churches in Palestine and the Roman Empire in general is the Biblical claim that the church were held in the houses of the church members. Organized church building probably wouldn't have been built until the late second or early third centuries if you give thaty claim any validity. The founding members of the church would have to die out, then their successors would have to die out, then the reformers would come in and try to make a grab for power. I don't think it would look any different than what we see now. Then, once they decided to move out of the homes, you have to think of what buildings they would use? If they were anything like the churches of today, they wouldn't have a huge amount of money, so they would move into an warehouse or storefront like a lot of smaller chruches do today. Then, much later, they would have the money and power to buy the land to erect their own buildings. Now, this is all assuming that the account of the church in Acts is correct. We have many reasons to believe it is not correct which throws open the door to many possibilities. However, I think enough work has been done in verifying the age of the Pauline letters and the gospels to discount a date as late as the fourth century. I wouldn't be surprised to see a date of the early to mid-second century which would be similar to the church found in Iraq. The problem is that those who didn't want the truth to come out about the founding of Christianity for the last two thousand years did a good job of covering their tracks. We may never know for sure.

05-29-2006, 12:06 PM	#8
Didymus Regular Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 416	I've read reports that say the church at Megiddo is "of Byzantine origin." Does anyone know what evidence supports that conclusion? And, by Byzantine, is it meant that the decorations etc. could not have been of Jewish Christian origin? There is no archeological evidence of earlier Christians in Palestine, Jewish or gentile. I think it's likely that, contra Luke, there was no Jesus and no Christians in Palestine during the 1st Christianity. The religion began in the Diaspora and didn't actually reach Palestine until the 3rd century, except perhaps for a few Christians (Paul's "pillars"?) who set up shop in Jerusalem and awaited the return of their savior. Didymus

05-30-2006, 03:19 AM	#10
Malachi151 Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Colorado Posts: 8,674	Thanks, this is good info. I'd still like to find complete translations of all the inscriptions in the Megiddo church.

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