Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Amaleq13 · 05-16-2005, 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yuri Kuchinsky

I was referring to the idea that since Goodacre was persuaded, therefore it must be a strong case.

It still isn't an appeal to authority. It is foolish to dismiss any instance of a knowledgeable scholar being persuaded to change his mind by a given argument. It strongly suggests that the argument be taken seriously.

It would be an appeal to authority only if it was asserted that the conclusion is true because Goodacre accepts it.

Yuri Kuchinsky · 05-16-2005, 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amaleq13

It still isn't an appeal to authority. It is foolish to dismiss any instance of a knowledgeable scholar being persuaded to change his mind by a given argument. It strongly suggests that the argument be taken seriously.

It would be an appeal to authority only if it was asserted that the conclusion is true because Goodacre accepts it.

Who changed his mind?

Yuri.

Diogenes the Cynic · 05-16-2005, 02:14 PM

I've been agnostic on the authenticity of Secret Mark. I thought the consensus was still that that it was at least authentically Clement but I'm certainly open to hear an argument for a forgery by Smith and I'm definitely intrigued by Vork's advance praise for SCC's paper. I'm eager to read it.

Amaleq13 · 05-16-2005, 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yuri Kuchinsky

Who changed his mind?

I took from "persuaded" that Goodacre had. I'm not aware of any public position he's taken on the subject prior to this review.

S.C.Carlson · 05-16-2005, 07:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yuri Kuchinsky

It's interesting that Carlson has so far failed to engage with any of my new findings that prove conclusively that SecMk could not have been a forgery,

http://www.trends.ca/~yuku/bbl/secmk.htm

I'm not exactly sure which findings you mean, but let's look at this one:

Quote:

And as for Smith, he, for his own part, was definitely aware that, in general, Clement's quotations do "show points of contact with the western text" (p. 78 in Smith's CLEMENT OF ALEXANDRIA)... And yet he never attempted to use this evidence to support the authenticity of the Mar Saba MS.

However, Smith's very first section arguing for the authenticity of the Secret Gospel fragments is entitled "Influence of the Western Text"; see pp. 122-123 of Clement of Alexandria.

Stephen

Yuri Kuchinsky · 05-17-2005, 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by S.C.Carlson

I'm not exactly sure which findings you mean, but let's look at this one:

[Smith never attempted to use the Western/Peripheral affinities of SecMk in support of its authenticity.]

However, Smith's very first section arguing for the authenticity of the Secret Gospel fragments is entitled "Influence of the Western Text"; see pp. 122-123 of Clement of Alexandria.

Stephen

This in no way contradicts what I wrote.

Smith tried to argue that SecMk influenced the Western text (rather than the other way around), but nobody has ever agreed with him on that.

Yuri.

S.C.Carlson · 05-17-2005, 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yuri Kuchinsky

Smith tried to argue that SecMk influenced the Western text

Exactly! That's using the Western text affinities of Secret Mark to support its authenticity.

Yuri Kuchinsky · 05-18-2005, 12:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by S.C.Carlson

Exactly! That's using the Western text affinities of Secret Mark to support its authenticity.

That's a very strained interpretation...

Yuri.

S.C.Carlson · 05-19-2005, 03:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yuri Kuchinsky

That's a very strained interpretation...

Thanks for this exchange, because the next time you claim that I haven't "engaged" your "conclusive" arguments, I'll just point people to this thread and they'll understand why.

Haran · 05-19-2005, 06:12 AM

Here are some interesting exerpts from Morton Smith's doctoral dissertation, Tannaitic Parallels to the Gospels, found in the Journal of Biblical Literature (JBL) 1951 (ie. before the discovery of Secret Mark / bold emphasis in text is my own) compared with Secret Mark:

Quote:

Tannaitic Parallels to the Gospels by Morton Smith:
....Further I think the passage in Sifre on Deut. to have been based on the fact that an important part of primitive Christianity was a secret doctrine which was revealed only to trusted members. Such a doctrine is suggested by the words put in the mouth of Jesus, speaking to his disciples: "To you is given the mystery of the kingdom of God, but to those outside all things are in parables, that they may surely see and not perceive." (- Mark 4:11)

Quote:

Secret Gospel of Mark:
As for Mark, then, during Peter's stay in Rome he wrote an account of the Lord's doings, not, however, declaring all of them, nor yet hinting at the secret ones, but selecting what he thought most useful for increasing the faith of those who were being instructed.
....
...so enslaved a certain presbyter of the church in Alexandria that he got from him a copy of the secret Gospel...etc, etc, etc...
...
"Secret" part of Mark:...for Jesus taught him the mystery of the kingdom of God.

---------------------------------------------------------

Quote:

Tannaitic Parallels continued...
And Paul himself wrote in I Cor. 2.1-6 "And I, coming to you, bretheren, came not proclaiming the testimony of God in lofty words...that your faith might not be in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God. But we speak wisdom among the perfect, and a wisdom not of this age...but we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery

Quote:

Secret Mark
For "Not all true things are to be said to all men." For this reason, the wisdom of God, through Solomon, advises, "Answer the fool from his folly," teaching that the light of the truth should be hidden from those who are mentally blind.

---------------------------------------------------------

Quote:

Tannaitic Parallels continued...
A similar distinction was recognized by the Tannaim between material suitable for public teaching and that resserved for secret teaching, as we learn from Hagigah T 2.1 (233): "The (passages of the Old Testament dealing with) forbidden sexual relationships are not to be expounded to three (at a time,) but may be expounded to two; and the account of creation not to two, but it may be expounded to a single hearer; and (Ezekiel's vision of) the chariot may not be expounded to a single hearer unless he be learned in the Law and of good understanding."

Quote:

Secret Mark:
But the youth, looking upon him, loved him and began to beseech him that he might be with him. ....And after six days Jesus told him what to do and in the evening the youth comes to him, wearing a linen cloth over his naked body. And he remained with him that night, for Jesus taught him the mystery of the kingdom of God.
....
But "naked man with naked man," and the other things about which you wrote are not found.

---------------------------------------------------------

Quote:

Tannaitic Parallels continued...
In spite of this the composers of TL thought, as has been seen, that there was an important difference between the words of the Law, which were taught openly, and the teachings of the heretics, which were taught secretly.

Quote:

Secret Mark
You did well in silencing the unspeakable teachings of the Carpocratians. {ie. heretics}
....
But since the foul demons are always devising destruction for the race of men, Carpocrates {ie. chief heretic of the narrative}, instructed by them and using deceitful arts, so enslaved a certain presbyter of the church in Alexandria that he got from him a copy of the secret Gospel, which he both interpreted according to his blasphemous and carnal doctrine and, moreover, polluted, mixing with the spotless and holy words utterly shameless lies. From this mixture is drawn off the teaching of the Carpocratians.

---------------------------------------------------------

What kind of motive could Smith have had for forging Secret Mark? If one reads Smith's works, one will find that Smith had a great interest in how scholars reacted to information. He seemed almost obsessed, to me, with how scholars will take new information, absorb it, and make it fit their position. Was Secret Mark meant to test scholars and their conclusions for Smith's own amusement?

Quote:

The Secret Gospel by Morton Smith:
....I have related these two interviews because they show two great scholars, with diametrically different attitudes and intellectual qualifications, confronted with important new evidence in the field of their special competence, and reaching immediately the conclusions compatible with their previous positions. Consistency is a frightening virtue. If scholars of the caliber of Goodenough and Nock could react in this way, how far can I trust myself? Not far, I fear, but at least I'm aware of the problem. That is why I look forward to the scholarly discussion that will follow the publication of the text {ie. Secret Mark}. What will others see in it? And what evidence will they be able to find to support their insight? For the scholars, at least, the matter will come down, in the end, to the question of evidence."

Quote:

The Secret Gospel by Morton Smith:
It was going to be a big job. {ie. working on Secret Mark} I sat in the library of the American School in Athens and doodled on my notes as I looked ahead at years of work to come. Circles within circles within circles....and what lines of connection could be drawn between them? But no, I certainly was not going to suppress it. It might turn out to be a fake, but even that result would be significant. And fake or not, the puzzle was going to be fun.

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05-16-2005, 02:14 PM	#13
Diogenes the Cynic Moderator - Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota Posts: 4,639	I've been agnostic on the authenticity of Secret Mark. I thought the consensus was still that that it was at least authentically Clement but I'm certainly open to hear an argument for a forgery by Smith and I'm definitely intrigued by Vork's advance praise for SCC's paper. I'm eager to read it.

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