Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Elijah · 01-06-2010, 09:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sschlichter

No, if you try to understand any of the gospels as they were written, you will get the followers who beleive Jesus's death and resurrection were in fulfillment of Scripture. You cannot take pieces out of the story without lebotimizing it.

Yea they believed his resurrection was supported by scripture or more likely they used scripture from the OT to validate him as the messiah but that’s not the point of the story, at all.

Again if you aren’t getting an anti king messiah trying to establish a new kind kingdom, what are you getting from the story?

sschlichter · 01-07-2010, 07:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elijah

Quote:

Originally Posted by sschlichter

No, if you try to understand any of the gospels as they were written, you will get the followers who beleive Jesus's death and resurrection were in fulfillment of Scripture. You cannot take pieces out of the story without lebotimizing it.

Yea they believed his resurrection was supported by scripture or more likely they used scripture from the OT to validate him as the messiah but that’s not the point of the story, at all.

Again if you aren’t getting an anti king messiah trying to establish a new kind kingdom, what are you getting from the story?

well, from matthew, I am getting the message that the kingdom of heaven is upon us (kingdom described 25+ times). It's promised King has come (as defined by the constant parallels between OT prophecy and fulfillment in Christ. I do not see an anti-King message. I see that the Kingdom of Heaven is not concerned with the Kings of earth at all. the message pivots on the person of jesus, his sacrifice, and resurrection. without those, no Kingdom exists and no underlying message can be salvaged without those elements. No takeover of the government, no rebellion, nothing related to that at all.

sschlichter · 01-07-2010, 07:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elijah

This is just diverting the conversation for why people had a reason to write the gospels. Lets see if I can answer this question in the original context of what we are talking about.

I can't.

Let's just pretend it's all fiction and still try to understand the story and see what we get. I bet we still get the messiah complex guy with the death wish, establishing an anti-king. What are you getting out of the story with the premise it's all made up? You could maybe make a note or two on what you think the difference in interpretation of the story would be if you took it from historical instead, but not necessary.

Just try to understand the story.

In Judea and in the 1st century before the Fall of the Temple committing suicide or being suicidal was not a criteria for a Jew to be called a Messiah.

Walking on water, raising rotting bodies from the dead, or falsely predicting your own resurrection will not make Jews worship you as a God and ask to forgive sins and abandon the Laws of Moses including circumcision unless you are a madman like Jesus son of Ananus who was just beaten to a pulp as found in Wars of the Jews by Josephus.

To be called a Jewish Messiah, one must emulate Simon BarCocheba. It is not possible to be wished into being a Messianic figure or a Son of God.

If you understood the story you would realise that it was not the Jesus character that was apocalyptic or suicidal but the author himself who thought that the end of the world was imminent or a conflagration similar to that mentioned in Isaiah 34 or some other Hebrew Scripture was about to occur.

this is not true. You should consider what OT jewish rabbis said about the messiah. you are only looking at visible political manifestations that are not relevant. for example, some modern Jews say that Isa 53 is talking about Israel. What do Jews before christ say about Isa. and a suffering servant?

show_no_mercy · 01-07-2010, 07:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

To be called a Jewish Messiah, one must emulate Simon BarCocheba.

Actually, to be called the Jewish Messiah, you had to emulate the Biblical Joshua (which is what Bar-Kokhba did). Joshua is "Jesus" in Greek, something that the original Christians probably recognized when they invented their "dying messiah" meme. Though this is lost due to the subtle sleight of hand of modern Bible translators

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luke 3

23 Now Jesus himself was about thirty years old when he began his ministry. He was the son, so it was thought, of Joseph, the son of Heli
23 και αυτος ην ιησους αρχομενος ωσει ετων τριακοντα ων υιος ως ενομιζετο ιωσηφ του ηλι

[...]
29 του ιησου του ελιεζερ του ιωριμ του μαθθατ του λευι

Who is this second "Jesus" in Jesus' family tree in Luke 3?

show_no_mercy · 01-07-2010, 07:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sschlichter

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

In Judea and in the 1st century before the Fall of the Temple committing suicide or being suicidal was not a criteria for a Jew to be called a Messiah.

Walking on water, raising rotting bodies from the dead, or falsely predicting your own resurrection will not make Jews worship you as a God and ask to forgive sins and abandon the Laws of Moses including circumcision unless you are a madman like Jesus son of Ananus who was just beaten to a pulp as found in Wars of the Jews by Josephus.

To be called a Jewish Messiah, one must emulate Simon BarCocheba. It is not possible to be wished into being a Messianic figure or a Son of God.

If you understood the story you would realise that it was not the Jesus character that was apocalyptic or suicidal but the author himself who thought that the end of the world was imminent or a conflagration similar to that mentioned in Isaiah 34 or some other Hebrew Scripture was about to occur.

this is not true. You should consider what OT jewish rabbis said about the messiah. you are only looking at visible political manifestations that are not relevant. for example, some modern Jews say that Isa 53 is talking about Israel. What do Jews before christ say about Isa. and a suffering servant?

Deutero-Isaiah (ch 40-55) did not write "chapters". So talking about "chapter" 53 as though its one independent thought is taking Deutero-Isaiah out of context. This is the context:

Isaiah 41:8, "But you, Israel, My servant, Jacob, whom I have chosen, seed of Abraham my friend"
Isaiah 44:1 "But hear, now, O Jacob My servant, Israel whom I have chosen!"
Isaiah 44:21 "Remember these things, O Jacob for you, O Israel, are My servant"
Isaiah 49:3 "And he said to me, "You are My servant, Israel in whom I glory.""
Isaiah 52:13 "Indeed, my servant shall prosper, be exalted and raised to great heights."

sschlichter · 01-07-2010, 08:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by show_no_mercy

Quote:

Originally Posted by sschlichter

this is not true. You should consider what OT jewish rabbis said about the messiah. you are only looking at visible political manifestations that are not relevant. for example, some modern Jews say that Isa 53 is talking about Israel. What do Jews before christ say about Isa. and a suffering servant?

Deutero-Isaiah (ch 40-55) did not write "chapters". So talking about "chapter" 53 as though its one independent thought is taking Deutero-Isaiah out of context. This is the context:

Isaiah 41:8, "But you, Israel, My servant, Jacob, whom I have chosen, seed of Abraham my friend"
Isaiah 44:1 "But hear, now, O Jacob My servant, Israel whom I have chosen!"
Isaiah 44:21 "Remember these things, O Jacob for you, O Israel, are My servant"
Isaiah 49:3 "And he said to me, "You are My servant, Israel in whom I glory.""
Isaiah 52:13 "Indeed, my servant shall prosper, be exalted and raised to great heights."

Isa 52:12 the God of Israel is your rear guard.

here we switch to a singular identity

(Isa 52:14) (just as many were horrified by the sight of you)
he was so disfigured he no longer looked like a man;

expected to look like a man, a human

(Isa 53:1) Who would have believed what we just heard?
When was the LORD's power revealed through him?
(Isa 53:2) He sprouted up like a twig before God,
like a root out of parched soil;
he had no stately form or majesty that might catch our attention,
no special appearance that we should want to follow him.
(Isa 53:3) He was despised and rejected by people,
one who experienced pain and was acquainted with illness;
people hid their faces from him;
he was despised, and we considered him insignificant.
(Isa 53:4) But he lifted up our illnesses,
he carried our pain;
even though we thought he was being punished,
attacked by God, and afflicted for something he had done.
(Isa 53:5) He was wounded because of our rebellious deeds,
crushed because of our sins;
he endured punishment that made us well;
because of his wounds we have been healed.

he, singular. If he is Israel then who is we and our?
If he is plural referring to Israel then how would we (Israel) follow him (Israel)?

(Isa 53:6) All of us had wandered off like sheep;
each of us had strayed off on his own path,
but the LORD caused the sin of all of us to attack him.

who is us and if us is Israel then how did israel attack him (singular)?

(Isa 53:7) He was treated harshly and afflicted,
but he did not even open his mouth.
Like a lamb led to the slaughtering block,
like a sheep silent before her shearers,
he did not even open his mouth.

How did Israel not open it's mouth when led to the slaughtering block?

(Isa 53:8) He was led away after an unjust trial -
but who even cared?
Indeed, he was cut off from the land of the living;
because of the rebellion of his own people he was wounded.

How was israel given an unjust trial and who are his (singular) own people if his is Israel?

(Isa 53:9) They intended to bury him with criminals,
but he ended up in a rich man's tomb,
because he had committed no violent deeds,
nor had he spoken deceitfully.
(Isa 53:10) Though the LORD desired to crush him and make him ill,
once restitution is made,
he will see descendants and enjoy long life,
and the LORD's purpose will be accomplished through him.
(Isa 53:11) Having suffered, he will reflect on his work,
he will be satisfied when he understands what he has done.
"My servant will acquit many,
for he carried their sins.

How was Israel intended to be buried with criminals?
How did he (singular) carry their (plural) sins?

(Isa 53:12) So I will assign him a portion with the multitudes,
he will divide the spoils of victory with the powerful,
because he willingly submitted to death
and was numbered with the rebels,
when he lifted up the sin of many
and intervened on behalf of the rebels."

How was Israel willingly submitting to death?
How was israel numbered with the rebels?
How did Israel lift of the sin of many?

Babylonian Talmud: "The Messiah --what is his name?...The Rabbis say, The Leper Scholar, as it is said, `surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him a leper, smitten of God and afflicted...'" (Sanhedrin 98b)

show_no_mercy · 01-07-2010, 08:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sschlichter

Quote:

Originally Posted by show_no_mercy

Deutero-Isaiah (ch 40-55) did not write "chapters". So talking about "chapter" 53 as though its one independent thought is taking Deutero-Isaiah out of context. This is the context:

Isaiah 41:8, "But you, Israel, My servant, Jacob, whom I have chosen, seed of Abraham my friend"
Isaiah 44:1 "But hear, now, O Jacob My servant, Israel whom I have chosen!"
Isaiah 44:21 "Remember these things, O Jacob for you, O Israel, are My servant"
Isaiah 49:3 "And he said to me, "You are My servant, Israel in whom I glory.""
Isaiah 52:13 "Indeed, my servant shall prosper, be exalted and raised to great heights."

Isa 52:12 the God of Israel is your rear guard.

here we switch to a singular identity

(Isa 52:14) (just as many were horrified by the sight of you)
he was so disfigured he no longer looked like a man;

expected to look like a man, a human

Because you're reading it overly literally, you miss out on the metaphor. Do you think that Jesus is god's wife? Or is it Israel? "Israel" has always been a singlular identity, that's the entire point of Deutero-Isaiah. In 53 Israel suffers for the sins of individual Jews.

No matter, though. In their arrogance, Christians always think they know the Hebrew bible better than Jews do.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sschlichter

Babylonian Talmud: "The Messiah --what is his name?...The Rabbis say, The Leper Scholar, as it is said, `surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him a leper, smitten of God and afflicted...'" (Sanhedrin 98b)

This same Babylonian Talmud says that Jesus was hanged on the eve of Passover because he practiced sorcery and led Israel to apostasy.

sschlichter · 01-07-2010, 09:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by show_no_mercy

Because you're reading it overly literally, you miss out on the metaphor. Do you think that Jesus is god's wife? Or is it Israel? "Israel" has always been a singlular identity, that's the entire point of Deutero-Isaiah. In 53 Israel suffers for the sins of individual Jews.

No matter, though. In their arrogance, Christians always think they know the Hebrew bible better than Jews do.

ok, then you should not have any trouble interpretting the passage with this in mind and answering the questions.

(Isa 53:1) Who would have believed what we just heard?
When was the LORD's power revealed through him?
(Isa 53:2) He sprouted up like a twig before God,
like a root out of parched soil;
he had no stately form or majesty that might catch our attention,
no special appearance that we should want to follow him.
(Isa 53:3) He was despised and rejected by people,
one who experienced pain and was acquainted with illness;
people hid their faces from him;
he was despised, and we considered him insignificant.
(Isa 53:4) But he lifted up our illnesses,
he carried our pain;
even though we thought he was being punished,
attacked by God, and afflicted for something he had done.
(Isa 53:5) He was wounded because of our rebellious deeds,
crushed because of our sins;
he endured punishment that made us well;
because of his wounds we have been healed.

he, singular. If he is Israel then who is we and our?
If he is plural referring to Israel then how would we (Israel) follow him (Israel)?

(Isa 53:6) All of us had wandered off like sheep;
each of us had strayed off on his own path,
but the LORD caused the sin of all of us to attack him.

who is us and if us is Israel then how did israel attack him (singular)?

(Isa 53:7) He was treated harshly and afflicted,
but he did not even open his mouth.
Like a lamb led to the slaughtering block,
like a sheep silent before her shearers,
he did not even open his mouth.

How did Israel not open it's mouth when led to the slaughtering block?

(Isa 53:8) He was led away after an unjust trial -
but who even cared?
Indeed, he was cut off from the land of the living;
because of the rebellion of his own people he was wounded.

How was israel given an unjust trial and who are his (singular) own people if his is Israel?

(Isa 53:9) They intended to bury him with criminals,
but he ended up in a rich man's tomb,
because he had committed no violent deeds,
nor had he spoken deceitfully.
(Isa 53:10) Though the LORD desired to crush him and make him ill,
once restitution is made,
he will see descendants and enjoy long life,
and the LORD's purpose will be accomplished through him.
(Isa 53:11) Having suffered, he will reflect on his work,
he will be satisfied when he understands what he has done.
"My servant will acquit many,
for he carried their sins.

How was Israel intended to be buried with criminals?
How did he (singular) carry their (plural) sins?

(Isa 53:12) So I will assign him a portion with the multitudes,
he will divide the spoils of victory with the powerful,
because he willingly submitted to death
and was numbered with the rebels,
when he lifted up the sin of many
and intervened on behalf of the rebels."

How was Israel willingly submitting to death?
How was israel numbered with the rebels?
How did Israel lift of the sin of many?

Quote:

This same Babylonian Talmud says that Jesus was hanged on the eve of Passover because he practiced sorcery and led Israel to apostasy.

yes, it did as predicted in the passage we are reading.

(Isa 53:1) Who would have believed what we just heard?
When was the LORD's power revealed through him?
(Isa 53:2) He sprouted up like a twig before God,
like a root out of parched soil;
he had no stately form or majesty that might catch our attention,
no special appearance that we should want to follow him.
(Isa 53:3) He was despised and rejected by people,
one who experienced pain and was acquainted with illness;
people hid their faces from him;
he was despised, and we considered him insignificant.

~steve

Johnny Skeptic · 01-07-2010, 10:24 AM

At http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/librar.../313-isaiah-53, Jews for Judaism has a website that provides sufficient evidence that Isaiah 53 refers to the nation of Israel, not to Jesus.

If anyone wishes to contact them, their telephone number is
800-477-6631.

Elijah · 01-07-2010, 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sschlichter

well, from matthew, I am getting the message that the kingdom of heaven is upon us (kingdom described 25+ times). It's promised King has come (as defined by the constant parallels between OT prophecy and fulfillment in Christ. I do not see an anti-King message. I see that the Kingdom of Heaven is not concerned with the Kings of earth at all. the message pivots on the person of jesus, his sacrifice, and resurrection. without those, no Kingdom exists and no underlying message can be salvaged without those elements. No takeover of the government, no rebellion, nothing related to that at all.

Ok what do you think the Kingdom of Heaven is, if not a political movement? Think about the Nation of Islam or the republic that Moses built with his commandments. These are political movements and to fail to see the political ramifications of what is going on and being pushed there, is a failure to understand it all together.

Are you in agreement that the king that has come is being portrayed by Jesus in the story? And you don’t see anything that suggests he’s there to establish a serving ideal of king instead of ruling king messiah like they were expecting???

Matthew 25:28 even as the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many."

Mark 8:35 For even the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many."

You can list elements of the story it seems but again you still haven’t presented what you think the story is trying to illustrate, if it isn’t a messianic anti-king trying to establish a new kind of kingdom. I get that that it’s difficult for you to see this in a political light so I’m curious to know what understanding of the story that you have that’s getting in the way of you seeing that.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

01-07-2010, 10:24 AM	#129
Johnny Skeptic Banned Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Florida Posts: 19,796	At http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/librar.../313-isaiah-53, Jews for Judaism has a website that provides sufficient evidence that Isaiah 53 refers to the nation of Israel, not to Jesus. If anyone wishes to contact them, their telephone number is 800-477-6631.

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.