Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Ray Moscow · 01-04-2008, 09:19 AM

Quote:

BTW, the book is available really cheaply at:

http://www.biblio.com/books/27148849.html

Excellent: only £2.50, vs. over $50 at Amazon.

Jedi Mind Trick · 01-04-2008, 10:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jedi Mind Trick

I think that the gospels are inconsistent in this regard as well as in other points because it is an overwrite of much more authentic oral and/or written accounts of the ascetic Yeshua ben Yoseph, a Nazorean Essene, a vegetarian and abstaining from strong drink.

And where do we find these "authentic" accounts of the ascetic Jesus?

Jeffrey

As with most things in this area of inquiry, it has to be ferreted out from a number of different sources. It is a theory of sorts. One of the many that seeks to explain in some fashion, or explain away in some fashion, this figure called Jesus. Curious that...

But direct documents that give this picture are mostly found among the heretical writings.

Amaleq13 · 01-04-2008, 10:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ray Moscow

Yes, but Jesus also fasted during his desert "initiation". That's the main ascetic element in his story.

That's what I thought.

Does one "ascetic element" establish the author is depicting Jesus as a parody of ascetics? Do parodies typically depict their central character explicitly denying the identity he is supposed to be lampooning?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

I notice that there is more on the wilderness temptation in Temptations Of Jesus In Early Christianity by Jeffrey Gibson, previewed on Amazon.

Published on my birthday!! I'm honored, Jeffrey.

Jeffrey's thesis seems to be supported by more of the story, Pete.

Jeffrey Gibson · 01-04-2008, 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jedi Mind Trick

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson

And where do we find these "authentic" accounts of the ascetic Jesus?

Jeffrey

As with most things in this area of inquiry, it has to be ferreted out from a number of different sources. It is a theory of sorts.
One of the many that seeks to explain in some fashion, or explain away in some fashion, this figure called Jesus. Curious that...

But direct documents that give this picture are mostly found among the heretical writings.

Such as? Could you please provide specific citations?

Jeffrey

Jeffrey Gibson · 01-04-2008, 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ray Moscow

Yes, but Jesus also fasted during his desert "initiation". That's the main ascetic element in his story.

That's what I thought.
The standard 40 days like Buddha.

What "forty days like Buddha"?

Jeffrey

Jedi Mind Trick · 01-04-2008, 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jedi Mind Trick

As with most things in this area of inquiry, it has to be ferreted out from a number of different sources. It is a theory of sorts.
One of the many that seeks to explain in some fashion, or explain away in some fashion, this figure called Jesus. Curious that...

But direct documents that give this picture are mostly found among the heretical writings.

Such as? Could you please provide specific citations?

Jeffrey

As to vegetarianism, specifically, I'll have to get back with you because I need to look them up again. However I think they are found in The Pseudo Clementines, and the Gospel of Thomas, but I could be wrong.

We do know, even from patristic writings, that James, Jesus' Brother and heir apparent, was a vegetarian and abstained from strong drink. It is reasonable to assume that Jesus was also from this tradition.

Jedi Mind Trick · 01-04-2008, 10:24 AM

Hey, I just came across this.

Even the Pope now links Jesus with the vegetarian Essenes.

Quote:

In addition, the Pope said on Thursday, Jesus celebrated Passover "without a lamb, as did the Essene community", which did not sacrifice animals. "Instead of the lamb he offered himself, he offered his life," Benedict added.

Edit to Add:
Link-2
Link-3

Jeffrey Gibson · 01-04-2008, 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jedi Mind Trick

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson

Such as? Could you please provide specific citations?

Jeffrey

As to vegetarianism, specifically, I'll have to get back with you because I need to look them up again. However I think they are found in The Pseudo Clementines, and the Gospel of Thomas, but I could be wrong.

And you consider these, even if somewhere else, "authentic" traditions?

Quote:

We do know, even from patristic writings, that James, Jesus' Brother and heir apparent, was a vegetarian

We do? Would you please cite the patristic texts that show this?

Jeffrey

Jedi Mind Trick · 01-04-2008, 10:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jedi Mind Trick

As to vegetarianism, specifically, I'll have to get back with you because I need to look them up again. However I think they are found in The Pseudo Clementines, and the Gospel of Thomas, but I could be wrong.

And you consider these, even if somewhere else, "authentic" traditions?

Are you suggesting that only the "catholic" traditions that have been handed down to us are authentic? Vegetarianism was prevelant among many christians and a few church fathers from early on.

Quote:

We do know, even from patristic writings, that James, Jesus' Brother and heir apparent, was a vegetarian

We do? Would you please cite the patristic texts that show this?

If you are curious about it then look the church fathers up yourself. Should I do your research?
:wave:

Toto · 01-04-2008, 10:56 AM

Since we don't know much of anything about James, it is possible to spin all sorts of romantic modern vegetarian stories about him. I think it is only Hegesippus who says that James abstained from meat:

Hegesippus

Quote:

James, the Lord's brother, succeeds to the government of the Church, in conjunction with the apostles. He has been universally called the Just, from the days of the Lord down to the present time. For many bore the name of James; but this one was holy from his mother's womb. He drank no wine or other intoxicating liquor,2 nor did he eat flesh; no razor came upon his head; he did not anoint himself with oil, nor make use of the bath. He alone was permitted to enter the holy place:3 for he did not wear any woollen garment, but fine linen only. He alone, I say, was wont to go into the temple: and he used to be found kneeling on his knees, begging forgiveness for the people-so that the skin of his knees became horny like that of a camel's, by reason of his constantly bending the knee in adoration to God, and begging forgiveness for the people. Therefore, in consequence of his pre-eminent justice, he was called the Just, and Oblias,4 which signifies in Greek Defence of the People, and Justice, in accordance with what the prophets declare concerning him.

Hegesippus wrote some time after the events, and I don't know how you could evaluate the historical reliability of this. It almost sounds like Hegesippus is describing a Jewish ascetic that later Christians adopted as an early Christian and the brother of the savior.

I would not take the Pope as an authority on the history of Jesus. He is a theologian first.

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