Freethought & Rationalism Archive

aa5874 · 07-09-2010, 10:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Transient

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

But, there are the writings of Josephus which mentioned many characters called Jesus in the first century before the Fall of the Temple c 70 CE.

Based on the writings of Josephus there seemed not to be anything special about being called by the name Jesus.

Perhaps, "Jesus" was equivalent to "Joe".

What would people think if it was claimed today that "Joe the robber" was the Messiah?

"The Life of Flavius Josephus" 22

Couldn't agree more except for the use of the word "Jesus", since no name anything like that sound was ever used in Palestine so it would seem.
Any ideas on the main part of my question?

I can only show what is in sources of antiquity. The word "Jesus" can be found in the writings of Josephus many many times and it is claimed that the writings of Josephus were in the 1st century.

Josephus himself lived in Galilee and wrote that he met characters called "Jesus".

"Life of Flavius Josephus"

Quote:

...I then called Jesus to me by himself, and told him, that" I was not a stranger to that treacherous design he had against me, nor was I ignorant by whom he was sent for...

Josephus claimed he CALLED Jesus. How did he do that?

Transient · 07-09-2010, 10:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by Transient

Couldn't agree more except for the use of the word "Jesus", since no name anything like that sound was ever used in Palestine so it would seem.
Any ideas on the main part of my question?

I can only show what is in sources of antiquity. The word "Jesus" can be found in the writings of Josephus many many times and it is claimed that the writings of Josephus were in the 1st century.

Josephus himself lived in Galilee and wrote that he met characters called "Jesus".

"Life of Flavius Josephus"

Quote:

...I then called Jesus to me by himself, and told him, that" I was not a stranger to that treacherous design he had against me, nor was I ignorant by whom he was sent for...

Josephus claimed he CALLED Jesus. How did he do that?

hmm I thought they didn't have a letter "J" back then. Are you reading from the original or some doctored copy?

aa5874 · 07-09-2010, 10:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Transient

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

I can only show what is in sources of antiquity. The word "Jesus" can be found in the writings of Josephus many many times and it is claimed that the writings of Josephus were in the 1st century.

Josephus himself lived in Galilee and wrote that he met characters called "Jesus".

"Life of Flavius Josephus"

Josephus claimed he CALLED Jesus. How did he do that?

hmm I thought they didn't have a letter "J" back then. Are you reading from the original or some doctored copy?

You think every thing from antiquity that now has "J" was doctored?

"Jehovah", "Jeremiah", "Joshua" and "Jerusalem" have been doctored?

Transient · 07-09-2010, 11:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by Transient

hmm I thought they didn't have a letter "J" back then. Are you reading from the original or some doctored copy?

You think every thing from antiquity that now has "J" was doctored?

"Jehovah", "Jeremiah", "Joshua" and "Jerusalem" have been doctored?

From what I remember those words were not the words used but maybe I am mistaken - all too complicated for my brain - stuff that old is a waste of my time - the trail is too cold - think I will go out into my garden and pull some weeds

ApostateAbe · 07-09-2010, 11:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SkepticBoyLee

Did they call him Yeshua? If you called out to him "Hey Jesus" then would he think you were talking to someone else?

Can someone clear up this "Jesus/Yeshua stuff?

There is some ambiguity about exactly how Jesus's name would have been pronounced since the New Testament is written in Koine Greek and Jesus spoke ancient Aramaic. There is very little doubt among the scholarship (although much more doubt among the people in this forum) that Jesus really did speak Aramaic, so that narrows down the possibilities considerably. The Aramaic language is today almost completely lost, reconstructed only from transliterations (phonetic translations) and evolutionary linguistic guesswork. Josephus reportedly spoke and wrote Aramaic as his primary language, and he identifies it as the language of first century Israel (the society of Jesus), but only the Greek versions of his writing survive. There are quotes within the gospels that presumably contain Aramaic-to-Greek transliterations, such as Mark 5:41, Mark 7:34, Mark 14:36, Mark 15:34, Matthew 5:22, Matthew 6:24, and John 20:16.

The name "Jesus" would be closely associated with the Torah "Joshua," which is another clue, but Torah Hebrew is not the same as first-century Aramaic.

There seems to be a somewhat complete study of the name and how it may have been pronounced on this Wikipedia page:

Yeshua (name). There are several possibilities for how Jesus's name was pronounced: Yeshua, Yehoshua, and Yeshu. I would go for Yeshua. It seems to have the greatest attestation.

Transient · 07-10-2010, 12:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ApostateAbe

Quote:

Originally Posted by SkepticBoyLee

Did they call him Yeshua? If you called out to him "Hey Jesus" then would he think you were talking to someone else?

Can someone clear up this "Jesus/Yeshua stuff?

There is some ambiguity about exactly how Jesus's name would have been pronounced since the New Testament is written in Koine Greek and Jesus spoke ancient Aramaic. There is very little doubt among the scholarship (although much more doubt among the people in this forum) that Jesus really did speak Aramaic, so that narrows down the possibilities considerably. The Aramaic language is today almost completely lost, reconstructed only from transliterations (phonetic translations) and evolutionary linguistic guesswork. Josephus reportedly spoke and wrote Aramaic as his primary language, and he identifies it as the language of first century Israel (the society of Jesus), but only the Greek versions of his writing survive. There are quotes within the gospels that presumably contain Aramaic-to-Greek transliterations, such as Mark 5:41, Mark 7:34, Mark 14:36, Mark 15:34, Matthew 5:22, Matthew 6:24, and John 20:16.

The name "Jesus" would be closely associated with the Torah "Joshua," which is another clue, but Torah Hebrew is not the same as first-century Aramaic.

There seems to be a somewhat complete study of the name and how it may have been pronounced on this Wikipedia page:

Yeshua (name). There are several possibilities for how Jesus's name was pronounced: Yeshua, Yehoshua, and Yeshu. I would go for Yeshua. It seems to have the greatest attestation.

thanks for that - it is how I remember it.
So they probably had a "Y" sound rather than a "J". So when they decided to Jayify the name didn't they know that the Jews didn't make a "J" sound back then or didn't they care and just Jayified it for fun?

Doug Shaver · 07-10-2010, 07:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by darstec

You should know by now I think all the main characters and all the authors of the NT are fictitious.

I was aware that some of the regulars here believe that. I did not recall your happening to be one of them. Apologies for the inattention.

Doug Shaver · 07-10-2010, 07:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

You have demonstrated you understand what I write or at least you have isolated the parts that are coherent to you.

There is a difference between coherence and comprehensibility.

Davka · 07-10-2010, 07:32 AM

The names "Yeshua" and "Yehoshua" were common among Jews for many centuries. Both names mean the same thing, "YHWH will save" (or "YHWH saves").

In the Old Testament, both names are translated as Joshua. The name "Jesus" is an oddly transmogrified version of the same name.

It would not have been considered at all out of the ordinary to name your kid Yeshua. There were lots of Yeshuas running around, as well as Davids, Yokhanans, Yonatans, Ya'acovs, and so on.

What I find interesting is that the only Messianic prophecy in the OT which mentions a name says "you shall call his name 'immanuel.'" Immanu-el is an ancient Hebrew word meaning "God (is) with us." It is interesting in that it uses the earliest word for God, "El," rather than Jehovah or YHWH. Most Hebrew names that refer to god incorporate one or two letters from the tetragrammaton.

So not only was Jesus not named Immanuel, his name does not even refer to El, but instead to YHWH.

ApostateAbe · 07-10-2010, 08:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Transient

Quote:

Originally Posted by ApostateAbe

There is some ambiguity about exactly how Jesus's name would have been pronounced since the New Testament is written in Koine Greek and Jesus spoke ancient Aramaic. There is very little doubt among the scholarship (although much more doubt among the people in this forum) that Jesus really did speak Aramaic, so that narrows down the possibilities considerably. The Aramaic language is today almost completely lost, reconstructed only from transliterations (phonetic translations) and evolutionary linguistic guesswork. Josephus reportedly spoke and wrote Aramaic as his primary language, and he identifies it as the language of first century Israel (the society of Jesus), but only the Greek versions of his writing survive. There are quotes within the gospels that presumably contain Aramaic-to-Greek transliterations, such as Mark 5:41, Mark 7:34, Mark 14:36, Mark 15:34, Matthew 5:22, Matthew 6:24, and John 20:16.

The name "Jesus" would be closely associated with the Torah "Joshua," which is another clue, but Torah Hebrew is not the same as first-century Aramaic.

There seems to be a somewhat complete study of the name and how it may have been pronounced on this Wikipedia page:

Yeshua (name). There are several possibilities for how Jesus's name was pronounced: Yeshua, Yehoshua, and Yeshu. I would go for Yeshua. It seems to have the greatest attestation.

thanks for that - it is how I remember it.
So they probably had a "Y" sound rather than a "J". So when they decided to Jayify the name didn't they know that the Jews didn't make a "J" sound back then or didn't they care and just Jayified it for fun?

The answer to that has to do with the evolution of the letter

J, which is a late development of the Middle Ages in the Latin languages. For some reason, they doubled the pronunciation of their J with both an "i" vowel and with a hard consonant "j" that we know and love (you can see the similarity between the two letters), then "j" became exclusively a hard consonant, and that is when the pronunciation of Jesus changed considerably.

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07-10-2010, 07:32 AM	#39
Davka Contributor Join Date: May 2010 Location: Babble Belt Posts: 20,748	The names "Yeshua" and "Yehoshua" were common among Jews for many centuries. Both names mean the same thing, "YHWH will save" (or "YHWH saves"). In the Old Testament, both names are translated as Joshua. The name "Jesus" is an oddly transmogrified version of the same name. It would not have been considered at all out of the ordinary to name your kid Yeshua. There were lots of Yeshuas running around, as well as Davids, Yokhanans, Yonatans, Ya'acovs, and so on. What I find interesting is that the only Messianic prophecy in the OT which mentions a name says "you shall call his name 'immanuel.'" Immanu-el is an ancient Hebrew word meaning "God (is) with us." It is interesting in that it uses the earliest word for God, "El," rather than Jehovah or YHWH. Most Hebrew names that refer to god incorporate one or two letters from the tetragrammaton. So not only was Jesus not named Immanuel, his name does not even refer to El, but instead to YHWH.

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