Freethought & Rationalism Archive

spin · 03-15-2013, 09:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ken Brown

Hi Spin, within Judaism, Shavuot (Feasts of Weeks) is counted from the morrow after the Sabbath, and they state that this Sabbath is the 15th of Nissan, not the weekly Sabbath.

We're basically going around in circles because you don't read. Back here I said "According to Leviticus there is no feast sabbath (other than the feast that falls on the sabbath). This should be clear to you from the separation of feast days and sabbaths (Lam 2:6), feasts, new moons and sabbaths (1 Chr 23:31), etc. The day of atonement, Lev 16:31 calls a sabbath sabbaton, ie a sabbath observance, requiring the same observance as a sabbath. This is also the case for the first and eighth days of Sukkot. It is not the case for other holy days." Now here you are telling me about what Judaism thinks about Shavuot. If you don't read the bible for what it says, what's the use in commenting?

And notice the issue that the first and eighth days of Sukkot are not sabbaths, but "sabbath sabbaton".

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ken Brown

Why would Judaism believe the day after Passover (1st day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread) is a Sabbath, and you do not?

Why do christians talk about the trinity when the bible does not? Religions develop.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ken Brown

Wouldn't you think that the people who were given the Sabbaths would have a little more knowledge than you do about them.

Appeal to authority. Instead of dealing with the evidence you hide behind ignorance and say "but the Jews are experts".

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ken Brown

You need to totally re-examine this issue. It all hinges on the fact that the day of preparation was the preparation for the High Day Sabbath which followed Passover, and not the weekly Sabbath.

As I said here, "This is a formal logic fallacy of the type: all dogs have four legs and all cats have four legs, so all dogs are cats." To put it another way, your logic is that [easter] is a holy day and [xmas] is a holy day, so [xmas] is [easter]. (Now substitute "1st day of unleavened bread" and "a sabbath") Really, Ken Brown, you're going round in circles. I've cited Lev 23:5-8 which tells you about unleavened bread and it says nothing about sabbaths, yet here you are still crapping on about sabbaths. You need to totally re-examine this issue.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ken Brown

This is why John refers to it as a High Day or Special Sabbath (John 19:31).

Another thing already dealt with (here) that you didn't respond to: "Jn 19:31 indicates that as it was the day of preparation, the Jews didn't want to leave the body up on the sabbath, ie Jesus died on Friday. Incidentally, this particular sabbath was special as it occurred on the passover. The text is clear however, that this was still a sabbath in the normal sense of the seventh day, so the day of preparation for the passover (Jn 19:14) coincided with the normal day of preparation, just as this sabbath coincided with the passover." That's the Johannine view.

You seem to be an earnest religionist who is trying to make sense of his religious documents by faking the evidence.

stephan huller · 03-15-2013, 10:00 PM

I don't understand how KB can think that John doesn't portray a Friday death. It's like he thinks he has all the answers and he just has to make the evidence fit his facts.

Ken Brown · 03-16-2013, 04:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ken Brown

Hi Spin, within Judaism, Shavuot (Feasts of Weeks) is counted from the morrow after the Sabbath, and they state that this Sabbath is the 15th of Nissan, not the weekly Sabbath.

We're basically going around in circles because you don't read. Back here I said "According to Leviticus there is no feast sabbath (other than the feast that falls on the sabbath). This should be clear to you from the separation of feast days and sabbaths (Lam 2:6), feasts, new moons and sabbaths (1 Chr 23:31), etc. The day of atonement, Lev 16:31 calls a sabbath sabbaton, ie a sabbath observance, requiring the same observance as a sabbath. This is also the case for the first and eighth days of Sukkot. It is not the case for other holy days." Now here you are telling me about what Judaism thinks about Shavuot. If you don't read the bible for what it says, what's the use in commenting?

And notice the issue that the first and eighth days of Sukkot are not sabbaths, but "sabbath sabbaton".

Why do christians talk about the trinity when the bible does not? Religions develop.

Appeal to authority. Instead of dealing with the evidence you hide behind ignorance and say "but the Jews are experts".

As I said here, "This is a formal logic fallacy of the type: all dogs have four legs and all cats have four legs, so all dogs are cats." To put it another way, your logic is that [easter] is a holy day and [xmas] is a holy day, so [xmas] is [easter]. (Now substitute "1st day of unleavened bread" and "a sabbath") Really, Ken Brown, you're going round in circles. I've cited Lev 23:5-8 which tells you about unleavened bread and it says nothing about sabbaths, yet here you are still crapping on about sabbaths. You need to totally re-examine this issue.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ken Brown

This is why John refers to it as a High Day or Special Sabbath (John 19:31).

Another thing already dealt with (here) that you didn't respond to: "Jn 19:31 indicates that as it was the day of preparation, the Jews didn't want to leave the body up on the sabbath, ie Jesus died on Friday. Incidentally, this particular sabbath was special as it occurred on the passover. The text is clear however, that this was still a sabbath in the normal sense of the seventh day, so the day of preparation for the passover (Jn 19:14) coincided with the normal day of preparation, just as this sabbath coincided with the passover." That's the Johannine view.

You seem to be an earnest religionist who is trying to make sense of his religious documents by faking the evidence.

Hi Spin, why didn't you clearly answer whether or not the Sabbath (H7676) of Lev 23:15 can fall on any day of the week? This Sabbath that Judaism counts from is NOT the weekly Sabbath, it's the Sabbath of Nissan 15. Don't you understand this basic fact? Why do you keep incorrectly teaching that the Sabbath of Nissan 15 should not have a day of preparation before it? KB

Ken Brown · 03-16-2013, 04:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iskander

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ken Brown

Hi Iskander, John calls it a "high" day, but Scriptures call them Feasts, holy convocations:

(Lev 23:2) Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, Concerning the feasts of יהוה, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are my feasts.

(Lev 23:4) These are the feasts of יהוה, even holy convocations, which ye shall proclaim in their seasons.

(Lev 23:7) In the first day ye shall have an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein.

(Lev 23:8) But ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto יהוה seven days: in the seventh day is an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein.

(Lev 23:21) And ye shall proclaim on the selfsame day, that it may be an holy convocation unto you: ye shall do no servile work therein: it shall be a statute for ever in all your dwellings throughout your generations.

Lev 23:24 - 23:25

(24) Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, In the seventh month, in the first day of the month, shall ye have a Sabbath, a memorial of blowing of trumpets, an holy convocation. (25) Ye shall do no servile work therein: but ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto יהוה.

Lev 23:27 - 23:28

(27) Also on the tenth day of this seventh month there shall be a day of atonement: it shall be an holy convocation unto you; and ye shall afflict your souls, and offer an offering made by fire unto יהוה. (28) And ye shall do no work in that same day: for it is a day of atonement, to make an atonement for you before יהוה your Elohim.

(Lev 23:32) It shall be unto you a Sabbath of rest, and ye shall afflict your souls: in the ninth day of the month at even, from even unto even, shall ye celebrate your Sabbath.

(Lev 23:39) Also in the fifteenth day of the seventh month, when ye have gathered in the fruit of the land, ye shall keep a feast unto יהוה seven days: on the first day shall be a Sabbath, and on the eighth day shall be a Sabbath.

KB

Fail. Give me examples of days in which observant Jews behave as they do on a Sabbath, please. Examples from any time in Jewish history.

There is only one day [7th day of the week] associated with Sabbath and only one Erev Shabbath/ Eve Sabbath.

There are other festivals, but the word Sabbath is never associated with it and only on a Sabbath observant Jews behave as on a Sabbath.

Hi Iskander, Jewish history has a Feast or Holy Day that requires a Sabbath for them to count from:

(Lev 23:15) And ye shall count unto you from the morrow after the sabbath, from the day that ye brought the sheaf of the wave offering; seven sabbaths shall be complete:

The word for Sabbath here in Lev 23:15 is the exact same word used for the weekly Sabbath (H7676), but Jewish history claims that this Sabbath can fall on any day of the week. I'm sure you are aware of that, aren't you?

Now here is where you need to exercise a little common sense. The word Sabbath has a meaning, and it basically means to rest. That is why it is called the Sabbath, it is a day of rest. The weekly Sabbath requires rest and convoking:

(Lev 23:3) Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the Sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the Sabbath of יהוה in all your dwellings.

The Sabbaths for the Holy Days that I listed above in my prior post also have the same requirement to rest and convoke. What happens when you have Sabbaths where you are required to rest and convoke on? You have to prepare for this resting and convoking, and this is why Friday became a day of preparation for resting and convoking on the weekly Sabbath. So are you willing to say that within the History of Israel, the resting and convoking on the Holy Day Sabbaths were not prepared for in the same manner or fashion as they did for the weekly Sabbath? KB

spin · 03-16-2013, 05:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ken Brown

Hi Spin, why didn't you clearly answer whether or not the Sabbath (H7676) of Lev 23:15 can fall on any day of the week?

Your inability to read is amazing. If you cannot read why are you mucking about here? It's got nothing to do with reality or evidence. It won't matter how many times I tell you it goes in one ear and bounces back without being processed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ken Brown

This Sabbath that Judaism counts from is NOT the weekly Sabbath, it's the Sabbath of Nissan 15. Don't you understand this basic fact? Why do you keep incorrectly teaching that the Sabbath of Nissan 15 should not have a day of preparation before it? KB

Evincing your ignorance is no response.

Until you deal with what people say to you, there is no point in repeating things to you. I've already demonstrated this fact. You need to totally re-examine this issue.

spin · 03-16-2013, 05:40 AM

While we are waiting for Ken Brown to start reading, I'd like to return to when the day started in early Jewish tradition. Ken Brown seems to think against the textual indications I've already provided that the Jews always had a day which started in the evening. This is not so. To demonstrate this once again, let's look at Ex 16:

[t2]21 Each morning everyone gathered as much as they needed, and when the sun grew hot, it melted away. 22 On the sixth day, they gathered twice as much—two omers for each person—and the leaders of the community came and reported this to Moses. 23 He said to them, "This is what the Lord commanded: 'Tomorrow is to be a day of sabbath rest, a holy sabbath to the Lord. So bake what you want to bake and boil what you want to boil. Save whatever is left and keep it until morning.'" 24 So they saved it until morning, as Moses commanded, and it did not stink or get maggots in it. 25 "Eat it today," Moses said, "because today is a sabbath to the Lord. You will not find any of it on the ground today. 26 Six days you are to gather it, but on the seventh day, the Sabbath, there will not be any."[/t2]
Here on the sixth day we see the preparation of food for the sabbath. It was cooked the day before because no cooking was allowed on the sabbath. It was to be left until the morning and miraculously there were no maggots. It wasn't prepared for evening consumption as one would expect for a day starting in the evening, but for consumption on a day that started in the morning. The day ran from morning to morning as all indications I've posted this far have shown.

Ken Brown needs the day to start in the evening otherwise he cannot make his faith-based argument work.

spin · 03-16-2013, 05:42 AM

Oh and does anyone think that Ken Brown will admit that Lev 23:5-8 says nothing about the sabbath? But then his whole house of cards will collapse.

Ken Brown · 03-16-2013, 05:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ken Brown

Hi Spin, why didn't you clearly answer whether or not the Sabbath (H7676) of Lev 23:15 can fall on any day of the week?

Your inability to read is amazing. If you cannot read why are you mucking about here? It's got nothing to do with reality or evidence. It won't matter how many times I tell you it goes in one ear and bounces back without being processed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ken Brown

This Sabbath that Judaism counts from is NOT the weekly Sabbath, it's the Sabbath of Nissan 15. Don't you understand this basic fact? Why do you keep incorrectly teaching that the Sabbath of Nissan 15 should not have a day of preparation before it? KB

Evincing your ignorance is no response.

Until you deal with what people say to you, there is no point in repeating things to you. I've already demonstrated this fact. You need to totally re-examine this issue.

Hi Spin, here is what you said that supposedly gave an answer about the Sabbath of Lev 23:15:

Quote:

Spins supposed answer:
"According to Leviticus there is no feast sabbath (other than the feast that falls on the sabbath). This should be clear to you from the separation of feast days and sabbaths (Lam 2:6), feasts, new moons and sabbaths (1 Chr 23:31), etc. The day of atonement, Lev 16:31 calls a sabbath sabbaton, ie a sabbath observance, requiring the same observance as a sabbath. This is also the case for the first and eighth days of Sukkot. It is not the case for other holy days."

Now, how is it that I can't read your answer when you remain silent about Judaism's belief that Lev 23:15 is a Sabbath, the Sabbath of Nissan 15. You say in your supposed answer that no feast days should be considered Sabbaths unless they fall on the weekly Sabbath or is either the day of atonement or one of Sukkot's Holy Days. Low and behold, your supposed answer goes up in flames because it does not address Judaism's belief about the 1st Day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread (Nissan 15) as being a legitimate Sabbath that they count from, and should have a day of preparation before it.

Why are you scared to answer the fact that Judaism, by virtue of counting from the Sabbath of Nissan 15, proves that the 1st Day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread is a Sabbath? What is it, do you believe when Elohim commanded to count from the morrow after the Sabbath, that He was mislabeling that day as a Sabbath? KB

Iskander · 03-16-2013, 05:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ken Brown

N/A

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_Friday

Whatever you may believe about any religion is OK by me; I am not posting here to try to convert anyone.

I only wanted to say that your Wednesday choice is very much a minority assessment of the text of the gospels and invite you to reflect on that.

I will not post again in this thread and I thank you for replying to my questions.

Friday is the choice of :Roman Catholic Church, Eastern Christianity,Anglican Communion, Lutheran Church,

Other Protestant traditions
Many other Protestant communities hold special services on this day as well. Moravians hold a Lovefeast on Good Friday as they receive Holy Communion on Maundy Thursday. The Methodist Church commemorates Good Friday with a service of worship, often based on the Seven Last Words from the Cross.[36][37] It is not uncommon for some communities to hold interdenominational services on Good Friday.

Some Baptist,[38] Pentecostal, many Sabbatarian[39] and non-denominational churches oppose the observance of Good Friday, regarding it as a papist tradition, and instead observe the Crucifixion on Wednesday to coincide with the Jewish sacrifice of the Passover Lamb (which Christians believe is an Old Testament pointer to Jesus Christ). A Wednesday Crucifixion of Jesus Christ allows for Christ to be in the tomb ("heart of the earth") for three days and three nights as he told the Pharisees he would be (Matthew 12:40), rather than two nights and a day if he had died on a Friday.[40][41] Preparation Day (14 Nisan on the Hebrew calendar) - which is the day before Passover (15 Nisan), instead of the Friday morning found in the Synoptic Gospels.

Ken Brown · 03-16-2013, 07:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iskander

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ken Brown

N/A

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_Friday

Whatever you may believe about any religion is OK by me; I am not posting here to try to convert anyone.

I only wanted to say that your Wednesday choice is very much a minority assessment of the text of the gospels and invite you to reflect on that.

I will not post again in this thread and I thank you for replying to my questions.

Friday is the choice of :Roman Catholic Church, Eastern Christianity,Anglican Communion, Lutheran Church,

Other Protestant traditions
Many other Protestant communities hold special services on this day as well. Moravians hold a Lovefeast on Good Friday as they receive Holy Communion on Maundy Thursday. The Methodist Church commemorates Good Friday with a service of worship, often based on the Seven Last Words from the Cross.[36][37] It is not uncommon for some communities to hold interdenominational services on Good Friday.

Some Baptist,[38] Pentecostal, many Sabbatarian[39] and non-denominational churches oppose the observance of Good Friday, regarding it as a papist tradition, and instead observe the Crucifixion on Wednesday to coincide with the Jewish sacrifice of the Passover Lamb (which Christians believe is an Old Testament pointer to Jesus Christ). A Wednesday Crucifixion of Jesus Christ allows for Christ to be in the tomb ("heart of the earth") for three days and three nights as he told the Pharisees he would be (Matthew 12:40), rather than two nights and a day if he had died on a Friday.[40][41] Preparation Day (14 Nisan on the Hebrew calendar) - which is the day before Passover (15 Nisan), instead of the Friday morning found in the Synoptic Gospels.

Hi Iskander, thank you for your discussion here, and maybe we will speak again. KB

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03-15-2013, 10:00 PM	#112
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	I don't understand how KB can think that John doesn't portray a Friday death. It's like he thinks he has all the answers and he just has to make the evidence fit his facts.

03-16-2013, 05:40 AM	#116
spin Contributor Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: nowhere Posts: 15,747	While we are waiting for Ken Brown to start reading, I'd like to return to when the day started in early Jewish tradition. Ken Brown seems to think against the textual indications I've already provided that the Jews always had a day which started in the evening. This is not so. To demonstrate this once again, let's look at Ex 16: [t2]21 Each morning everyone gathered as much as they needed, and when the sun grew hot, it melted away. 22 On the sixth day, they gathered twice as much—two omers for each person—and the leaders of the community came and reported this to Moses. 23 He said to them, "This is what the Lord commanded: 'Tomorrow is to be a day of sabbath rest, a holy sabbath to the Lord. So bake what you want to bake and boil what you want to boil. Save whatever is left and keep it until morning.'" 24 So they saved it until morning, as Moses commanded, and it did not stink or get maggots in it. 25 "Eat it today," Moses said, "because today is a sabbath to the Lord. You will not find any of it on the ground today. 26 Six days you are to gather it, but on the seventh day, the Sabbath, there will not be any."[/t2] Here on the sixth day we see the preparation of food for the sabbath. It was cooked the day before because no cooking was allowed on the sabbath. It was to be left until the morning and miraculously there were no maggots. It wasn't prepared for evening consumption as one would expect for a day starting in the evening, but for consumption on a day that started in the morning. The day ran from morning to morning as all indications I've posted this far have shown. Ken Brown needs the day to start in the evening otherwise he cannot make his faith-based argument work.

03-16-2013, 05:42 AM	#117
spin Contributor Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: nowhere Posts: 15,747	Oh and does anyone think that Ken Brown will admit that Lev 23:5-8 says nothing about the sabbath? But then his whole house of cards will collapse.

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