Bernard Muller

to Duvduv,
I concede, I do not have affidavit and video of them.
You win, I loose.

Cordially, Bernard

andrewcriddle

Tatian's Address to the Greeks doesn't use the word Christ either.

The interesting cases are large pieces of text that mention Christ and his followers but do not use the word Christians

Andrew Criddle

Jeffrey Gibson

Assuming that by "churches" you mean "assemblies of Jesus as the Christ believers", not buildings purpose built for worship of Jesus, does not Tacitus tell us that there were Christ believers in Judea and Rome before the great fire?

Doesn't Suetonius as well in Nero 16, at least with respect to Rome?

Jeffrey

Jeffrey Gibson

Justinus Martyr Apol., Apologia (0645: 001)
“Die ältesten Apologeten”, Ed. Goodspeed, E.J.
Göttingen: Vandenhoeck & Ruprecht, 1915.
Chapter 4, section 5, line 1

καὶ γὰρ τοὺς κατηγορου-
μένους ἐφ' ὑμῶν πάντας πρὶν ἐλεγχθῆναι οὐ τιμωρεῖτε· ἐφ'
ἡμῶν δὲ τὸ ὄνομα ὡς ἔλεγχον λαμβάνετε, καίπερ, ὅσον γε ἐκ
τοῦ ὀνόματος, τοὺς κατηγοροῦντας μᾶλλον κολάζειν ὀφείλετε.
Χριστιανοὶ γὰρ εἶναι κατηγορούμεθα· τὸ δὲ χρηστὸν μισεῖ-
σθαι οὐ δίκαιον.
Go to Context


Justinus Martyr Apol., Apologia
Chapter 7, section 3, line 6

καθόλου μὲν οὖν κἀκεῖνο ὁμολογοῦμεν,
ὅτι ὃν τρόπον οἱ ἐν Ἕλλησι τὰ αὐτοῖς ἀρεστὰ δογματίσαντες
ἐκ παντὸς τῷ ἑνὶ ὀνόματι φιλοσοφίας προσαγορεύονται, καίπερ
τῶν δογμάτων ἐναντίων ὄντων, οὕτως καὶ τῶν ἐν βαρβάροις
γενομένων καὶ δοξάντων σοφῶν τὸ ἐπικατηγορούμενον ὄνομα
κοινόν ἐστι· Χριστιανοὶ γὰρ πάντες προσαγορεύονται.
Go to Context


Justinus Martyr Apol., Apologia
Chapter 12, section 9, line 4

γενήσεσθαι
ταῦτα πάντα προεῖπε, φημί, ὁ ἡμέτερος διδάσκαλος καὶ
τοῦ πατρὸς πάντων καὶ δεσπότου θεοῦ υἱὸς καὶ ἀπόστολος ὢν
Ἰησοῦς Χριστός, ἀφ' οὗ καὶ τὸ Χριστιανοὶ ἐπονομάζεσθαι ἐσχή-
καμεν.
Go to Context


Justinus Martyr Apol., Apologia
Chapter 16, section 8, line 3

ὡς δὲ καὶ τὸν θεὸν μόνον δεῖ
προσκυνεῖν, οὕτως ἔπεισεν εἰπών· Μεγίστη ἐντολή ἐστι· Κύριον
τὸν θεόν σου προσκυνήσεις καὶ αὐτῷ μόνῳ λατρεύσεις ἐξ ὅλης
τῆς καρδίας σου καὶ ἐξ ὅλης τῆς ἰσχύος σου, κύριον τὸν θεὸν
τὸν ποιήσαντά σε.
καὶ προσελθόντος αὐτῷ τινος καὶ εἰπόν-
τος· Διδάσκαλε ἀγαθέ, ἀπεκρίνατο λέγων· Οὐδεὶς ἀγαθὸς εἰ
μὴ μόνος ὁ θεός, ὁ ποιήσας τὰ πάντα.
οἳ δ' ἂν μὴ εὑρί-
σκωνται βιοῦντες, ὡς ἐδίδαξε, γνωριζέσθωσαν μὴ ὄντες Χρι-
στιανοί, κἂν λέγωσιν διὰ γλώττης τὰ τοῦ Χριστοῦ διδάγματα·
οὐ γὰρ τοὺς μόνον λέγοντας, ἀλλὰ τοὺς καὶ τὰ ἔργα πράττοντας
σωθήσεσθαι ἔφη.
Go to Context


Justinus Martyr Apol., Apologia
Chapter 26, section 6, line 2

πάντες οἱ ἀπὸ τούτων ὁρμώμενοι, ὡς ἔφημεν,
Χριστιανοὶ καλοῦνται, ὃν τρόπον καὶ οἱ οὐ κοινωνοῦντες τῶν
αὐτῶν δογμάτων τοῖς φιλοσόφοις τὸ ἐπικατηγορούμενον ὄνομα
τῆς φιλοσοφίας κοινὸν ἔχουσιν.
Go to Context


Justinus Martyr Apol., Apologia
Chapter 46, section 3, line 1

καὶ οἱ μετὰ λόγου βιώσαντες Χριστιανοί
εἰσι, κἂν ἄθεοι ἐνομίσθησαν, οἷον ἐν Ἕλλησι μὲν Σωκράτης
καὶ Ἡράκλειτος καὶ οἱ ὅμοιοι αὐτοῖς, ἐν βαρβάροις δὲ Ἀβραὰμ
καὶ Ἀνανίας καὶ Ἀζαρίας καὶ Μισαὴλ καὶ Ἠλίας καὶ ἄλλοι
πολλοί, ὧν τὰς πράξεις ἢ τὰ ὀνόματα καταλέγειν μακρὸν εἶναι
ἐπιστάμενοι τανῦν παραιτούμεθα.
Go to Context


Justinus Martyr Apol., Apologia
Chapter 46, section 4, line 4

ὥστε καὶ οἱ προγενόμενοι
ἄνευ λόγου βιώσαντες, ἄχρηστοι καὶ ἐχθροὶ τῷ Χριστῷ ἦσαν
καὶ φονεῖς τῶν μετὰ λόγου βιούντων· οἱ δὲ μετὰ λόγου βιώ-
σαντες καὶ βιοῦντες Χριστιανοὶ καὶ ἄφοβοι καὶ ἀτάραχοι ὑπάρ-
χουσι.
Go to Context


Justinus Martyr Apol., Dialogus cum Tryphone (0645: 003)
“Die ältesten Apologeten”, Ed. Goodspeed, E.J.
Göttingen: Vandenhoeck & Ruprecht, 1915.
Chapter 44, section 1, line 4

Οὕτω γὰρ κατὰ πάντα ἀθῷος ὑμῶν χάριν εὑρε-
θήσομαι, εἰ ἀποδείξεις ποιούμενος ἀγωνίζομαι ὑμᾶς πεισθῆναι·
ἐὰν δὲ ὑμεῖς, σκληροκάρδιοι μένοντες ἢ ἀσθενεῖς τὴν γνώμην
διὰ τὸν ἀφωρισμένον τοῖς Χριστιανοῖς θάνατον, τῷ ἀληθεῖ συντί-
θεσθαι μὴ βούλησθε, ἑαυτοῖς αἴτιοι φανήσεσθε.
Go to Context


Justinus Martyr Apol., Dialogus cum Tryphone
Chapter 47, section 2, line 10

ἀλλ' ἐὰν αὐτοὶ διὰ τὸ ἀσθενὲς τῆς γνώμης καὶ τὰ ὅσα δύνανται
νῦν ἐκ τῶν Μωυσέως, ἃ διὰ τὸ σκληροκάρδιον τοῦ λαοῦ νοοῦμεν
διατετάχθαι, μετὰ τοῦ ἐπὶ τοῦτον τὸν Χριστὸν ἐλπίζειν καὶ τὰς
αἰωνίους καὶ φύσει δικαιοπραξίας καὶ εὐσεβείας φυ-
λάσσειν βούλωνται καὶ αἱρῶνται συζῆν τοῖς Χριστιανοῖς καὶ
πιστοῖς, ὡς προεῖπον, μὴ πείθοντες αὐτοὺς μήτε περιτέμνεσθαι
ὁμοίως αὐτοῖς μήτε σαββατίζειν μήτε ἄλλα ὅσα τοιαῦτά ἐστι
τηρεῖν, καὶ προσλαμβάνεσθαι καὶ κοινωνεῖν ἁπάντων, ὡς ὁμος-
πλάγχνοις καὶ ἀδελφοῖς, δεῖν ἀποφαίνομαι.
Go to Context


Justinus Martyr Apol., Dialogus cum Tryphone
Chapter 63, section 5, line 6

καὶ ὅτι τοῖς εἰς αὐτὸν πιστεύουσιν, ὡς
οὖσι μιᾷ ψυχῇ καὶ μιᾷ συναγωγῇ καὶ μιᾷ ἐκκλησίᾳ, ὁ λόγος
τοῦ θεοῦ λέγει ὡς θυγατρί, τῇ ἐκκλησίᾳ τῇ ἐξ ὀνόματος αὐτοῦ
γενομένῃ καὶ μετασχούσῃ τοῦ ὀνόματος αὐτοῦ (Χριστιανοὶ γὰρ
πάντες καλούμεθα), ὁμοίως φανερῶς οἱ λόγοι κηρύσσουσι, δι-
δάσκοντες ἡμᾶς καὶ τῶν παλαιῶν πατρῴων ἐθῶν ἐπιλαθέσθαι,
οὕτως ἔχοντες· Ἄκουσον, θύγατερ, καὶ ἴδε καὶ κλῖνον τὸ οὖς
σου, καὶ ἐπιλάθου τοῦ λαοῦ σου καὶ τοῦ οἴκου τοῦ πατρός
σου· καὶ ἐπιθυμήσει ὁ βασιλεὺς τοῦ κάλλους σου, ὅτι αὐτός
ἐστι κύριός σου, καὶ προσκυνήσεις αὐτῷ.
Καὶ ὁ Τρύφων· Ἔστω ὑμῶν, τῶν ἐξ ἐθνῶν, κύριος
καὶ Χριστὸς καὶ θεὸς γνωριζόμενος, ὡς αἱ γραφαὶ σημαίνουσιν,
οἵτινες καὶ ἀπὸ τοῦ ὀνόματος αὐτοῦ Χριστιανοὶ καλεῖσθαι πάντες

Go to Context


Justinus Martyr Apol., Dialogus cum Tryphone
Chapter 64, section 1, line 3

γενομένῃ καὶ μετασχούσῃ τοῦ ὀνόματος αὐτοῦ (Χριστιανοὶ γὰρ
πάντες καλούμεθα), ὁμοίως φανερῶς οἱ λόγοι κηρύσσουσι, δι-
δάσκοντες ἡμᾶς καὶ τῶν παλαιῶν πατρῴων ἐθῶν ἐπιλαθέσθαι,
οὕτως ἔχοντες· Ἄκουσον, θύγατερ, καὶ ἴδε καὶ κλῖνον τὸ οὖς
σου, καὶ ἐπιλάθου τοῦ λαοῦ σου καὶ τοῦ οἴκου τοῦ πατρός
σου· καὶ ἐπιθυμήσει ὁ βασιλεὺς τοῦ κάλλους σου, ὅτι αὐτός
ἐστι κύριός σου, καὶ προσκυνήσεις αὐτῷ.
Καὶ ὁ Τρύφων· Ἔστω ὑμῶν, τῶν ἐξ ἐθνῶν, κύριος
καὶ Χριστὸς καὶ θεὸς γνωριζόμενος, ὡς αἱ γραφαὶ σημαίνουσιν,
οἵτινες καὶ ἀπὸ τοῦ ὀνόματος αὐτοῦ Χριστιανοὶ καλεῖσθαι πάντες
ἐσχήκατε· ἡμεῖς δέ, τοῦ θεοῦ τοῦ καὶ αὐτὸν τοῦτον
ποιήσαντος λατρευταὶ ὄντες, οὐ δεόμεθα τῆς ὁμολογίας αὐτοῦ
οὐδὲ τῆς προσκυνήσεως.
Go to Context


Justinus Martyr Apol., Dialogus cum Tryphone
Chapter 80, section 4, line 2

εἰ γὰρ καὶ συνεβάλετε ὑμεῖς τισι λεγομένοις
Χριστιανοῖς, καὶ τοῦτο μὴ ὁμολογοῦσιν, ἀλλὰ καὶ βλασφημεῖν
τολμῶσι τὸν θεὸν Ἀβραὰμ καὶ τὸν θεὸν Ἰσαὰκ καὶ τὸν θεὸν
Ἰακώβ, οἳ καὶ λέγουσι μὴ εἶναι νεκρῶν ἀνάστασιν, ἀλλὰ ἅμα
τῷ ἀποθνήσκειν τὰς ψυχὰς αὐτῶν ἀναλαμβάνεσθαι εἰς τὸν οὐ-
ρανόν, μὴ ὑπολάβητε αὐτοὺς Χριστιανούς, ὥσπερ οὐδὲ Ἰουδαίους,
ἄν τις ὀρθῶς ἐξετάσῃ, ὁμολογήσειεν εἶναι τοὺς Σαδδουκαίους
ἢ τὰς ὁμοίας αἱρέσεις Γενιστῶν καὶ Μεριστῶν καὶ Γαλιλαίων
καὶ Ἑλληνιανῶν καὶ Φαρισαίων καὶ Βαπτιστῶν (καὶ μὴ ἀηδῶς
ἀκούσητέ μου πάντα ἃ φρονῶ λέγοντος), ἀλλὰ λεγομένους μὲν
Ἰουδαίους καὶ τέκνα Ἀβραάμ, καὶ χείλεσιν ὁμολογοῦντας τὸν

Go to Context


Justinus Martyr Apol., Dialogus cum Tryphone
Chapter 80, section 5, line 2

ρανόν, μὴ ὑπολάβητε αὐτοὺς Χριστιανούς, ὥσπερ οὐδὲ Ἰουδαίους,
ἄν τις ὀρθῶς ἐξετάσῃ, ὁμολογήσειεν εἶναι τοὺς Σαδδουκαίους
ἢ τὰς ὁμοίας αἱρέσεις Γενιστῶν καὶ Μεριστῶν καὶ Γαλιλαίων
καὶ Ἑλληνιανῶν καὶ Φαρισαίων καὶ Βαπτιστῶν (καὶ μὴ ἀηδῶς
ἀκούσητέ μου πάντα ἃ φρονῶ λέγοντος), ἀλλὰ λεγομένους μὲν
Ἰουδαίους καὶ τέκνα Ἀβραάμ, καὶ χείλεσιν ὁμολογοῦντας τὸν
θεόν, ὡς αὐτὸς κέκραγεν ὁ θεός, τὴν δὲ καρδίαν πόρρω ἔχειν
ἀπ' αὐτοῦ.
ἐγὼ δέ, καὶ εἴ τινές εἰσιν ὀρθογνώμονες κατὰ
πάντα Χριστιανοί, καὶ σαρκὸς ἀνάστασιν γενήσεσθαι ἐπιστά-
μεθα καὶ χίλια ἔτη ἐν Ἰερουσαλὴμ οἰκοδομηθείσῃ καὶ
κοσμηθείσῃ καὶ πλατυνθείσῃ, ὡς οἱ προφῆται Ἰεζεκιὴλ καὶ
Ἠσαίας καὶ οἱ ἄλλοι ὁμολογοῦσιν.
Go to Context


Justinus Martyr Apol., Dialogus cum Tryphone
Chapter 117, section 3, line 2

ταῦτα γὰρ
μόνα καὶ Χριστιανοὶ παρέλαβον ποιεῖν, καὶ ἐπ' ἀναμνήσει δὲ
τῆς τροφῆς αὐτῶν ξηρᾶς τε καὶ ὑγρᾶς, ἐν ᾗ καὶ τοῦ πάθους,
ὃ πέπονθε δι' αὐτοὺς ὁ υἱὸς τοῦ θεοῦ, μέμνηνται· οὗ τὸ
ὄνομα βεβηλωθῆναι κατὰ πᾶσαν τὴν γῆν καὶ βλασφημεῖσθαι οἱ
ἀρχιερεῖς τοῦ λαοῦ ὑμῶν καὶ διδάσκαλοι εἰργάσαντο, ἃ ῥυπαρὰ
καὶ αὐτὰ ἐνδύματα, περιτεθέντα ὑφ' ὑμῶν πᾶσι τοῖς ἀπὸ τοῦ
ὀνόματος τοῦ Ἰησοῦ γενομένοις Χριστιανοῖς, δείξει αἰρόμενα
ἀφ' ἡμῶν ὁ θεός, ὅταν πάντας ἀναστήσῃ, καὶ τοὺς μὲν ἐν αἰωνίῳ
καὶ ἀλύτῳ βασιλείᾳ ἀφθάρτους καὶ ἀθανάτους καὶ ἀλύπους Go to Context
κα-



Pseudo-Justinus Martyr, Epistula ad Diognetum (0646: 004)
“Corpus apologetarum Christianorum saeculi secundi, vol. 3, 3rd edn.”, Ed. Otto, J.C.T.
Jena: Mauke, 1879, Repr. 1971.
Morel page 496, section D, line 5

Τῆς μὲν οὖν κοινῆς εἰκαιότητος καὶ ἀπάτης καὶ τῆς
Ἰουδαίων πολυπραγμοσύνης καὶ ἀλαζονείας ὡς ὀρθῶς ἀπέ-
χονται Χριστιανοί, ἀρκούντως σε νομίζω μεμαθηκέναι· τὸ
δὲ τῆς ἰδίας αὐτῶν θεοσεβείας μυστήριον μὴ προσδοκήσῃς δύ-
νασθαι παρὰ ἀνθρώπου μαθεῖν.
Go to Context


Pseudo-Justinus Martyr, Epistula ad Diognetum
Morel page 497, section D, line 4

Ἁπλῶς δ' εἰπεῖν· ὅπερ ἐστὶν ἐν σώματι ψυχή, τοῦτ'
εἰσὶν ἐν κόσμῳ Χριστιανοί.
Go to Context


Pseudo-Justinus Martyr, Epistula ad Diognetum
Morel page 497, section D, line 5

Ἔσπαρται κατὰ πάντων τῶν τοῦ
σώματος μελῶν ἡ ψυχή· καὶ Χριστιανοὶ κατὰ τὰς τοῦ κόσμου
πόλεις.




Jeffrey

Bernard Muller

Hi Jeffrey,
I am afraid Duvduv is going to say we do not have videos in order to prove that :constern01:
Cordially, Bernard

Duvduv

Bernard, all I think you expect to be said is that you rely on the claims of church spokesmen because we know that there is no empirical evidence for any Christianity in the first century. There is nothing wrong with admiting this. What is wrong is when academics deny this while doing it.

Duvduv

So what? And if someone says there were little green men in Ephesus in 110 CE, what then? Can you prove that there were or were not? You have to rely on someone. That's called FAITH, not evidence.

Jeffrey Gibson

One wonders then what you would accept as evidence. One also wonders why you don't accept ancient non Christian testimony as evidence? Presumably you do for the existence of, say, Socrates and Plato and Heraclitus, or Marcus Brutus and Cassius, yes?

In any case, are you denying that we find a mention of Christians in pre-fire Rome in Tacitus and Suetonius?


Jeffrey

stephan huller

duvduv only thinks rabbinic testimonies are unassailable witnesses to historical truth. That's why we should be talking about Nero's ultimate conversion to Judaism, his heir and grandson R. Meir and Titus's being felled by a gnat going in his nose and knocking out his brain.

Bernard Muller

To Duvduv,

Does "empirical evidence" mean affidavit and video (which, by the way, can be, and has been faked)?

Definition for empirical evidence:
"Empirical evidence is a source of knowledge acquired by means of observation or experimentation" (Wikipedia)
What I proposed was empirical evidence because that source of knowledge came by means of observation.

A definition for "empirical":
"relying on experience or observation alone often without due regard for system and theory"
Are you sure you are "without due regard for system and theory" when you reject many positive pieces of evidence from ancient (Christian and non-Christian) texts, evidence which can certainly be considered as empirical evidence?

How many pieces of positive empirical evidence did you find about Christians not existing in the first century?

Cordially, Bernard