Nihilus

Why is this an issue? There are a number of Jewish pseudepigraphal texts which suggest that Moses existed well prior to Josiah. The Torah is not the only text which references the existence of Moses.

http://fam-faerch.dk/pseudigrapher/Index.html

spin

What does this "[n]ot sure" mean exactly here?

These ships were for commercial purposes, plying trade between the Levantine coast and Alexandria. History records the movement of Jews from Judea to Egypt in the Zenon Papyri. Zeno of Caunus was an agent for the high Egyptian official Apollonius under Ptolemy II and Ptolemy III. His letters describe amongst other things the movement of slaves, Jewish slaves, to Egypt along the trade route circa 260 BCE. (Slavery is a very ancient institution, but the commercialization of it was predominantly a Greek development.)

Although there was always movement between the Levant and Egypt via the land route, movement of people by ship regards Ptolemaic times.


spin

spin

Why don't you try to date any of these?

You will find you simply cannot. The earliest actual torah texts we have are from the Dead Sea Scrolls. (A few ancient Hebrew prayers now found in the torah exist from earlier times.)

As a guide for your dating efforts of pseudepigraphic works, you might like to consider the fact that the "city" referred to in Exodus 1 as Pithom was built by the pharaoh Necho II circa 610 BCE.


spin

Nihilus

Not sure about ships.

Doesn't this answer your own question then?

Nihilus

Because the originals weren't preserved. They didn't have microfiche in those days. That's largely why the books weren't canonized.

The theory is that these later copies originated from earlier originals which were lost. The copies will have later dates than the lost originals.

Cities may be destroyed and rebuilt numerous times over the ages. What you basically have here is the inability to verifiably date things beyond a certain point. The more ancient something is, the harder it is to date it. For example, it's only theorized when the ancient pyramids were built. Dating becomes nebulous.

spin

You haven't communicated what you mean by "[n]ot sure". It usually means that you have some idea, but insufficient to give a definitive response. You didn't seem to have any knowledge about the ships.

You're supposed to be interacting with the data, given your comments about the dating of the torah.


spin

spin

This just means that you were wasting your time talking about the pseudepigraphic books because you cannot date them and any use of them re dating is vain.

Months, years, what? You are trying to provide useful indications for dating.

This is the usual fudging. But the evidence is clear in the case of Pithom. Perhaps you might like to read Holladay's excavation reports from Tell el-Maskhuta in Wadi Tumilat. The archaeological evidence shows no pottery remains from any time from Necho II back 1000 years.

It would be good if you knew what we were dealing with. The archaeology is in.


spin

Nihilus

I haven't wasted my time. Perhaps you think that I've wasted your time.

I haven't tried to date anything.

And why are these archaeological claims relevant to you? For example, why not prioritize the mundane purchase of toilet paper at the local grocery store over the importance of excavated pottery remains? Why is this important to you?

You're basing an argument on pottery? Why does this matter to you? For example, why should this archaeological find merit more attention than running a disk defrag on your computer? Why is this relevant to you?

Am I supposed to know about ships? I care more about changing the wiper blades on my car. You should to. Why are ships relevant to you? And what do ships have to do with dating?

I hadn't dated the Torah, except to say that it existed prior to the reign of Josiah. Why is this relevant to you?

spin

Nice exercise in ducking and weaving.


spin

Nihilus

Ducking and weaving what? I wasn't trying to debate you, nor do I necessarily even take an alternate stance. This isn't a debate forum where debate rules apply. I'm trying to have a discussion with you. If you wish to have a debate, then take it into a debate forum.

Rather, you've ducked my question. Why is this relevant to you? You've not even presented what your stance is.