Freethought & Rationalism Archive

mark9950 · 08-20-2003, 07:52 AM

Since human sacrifice was forbidden for sin as I have seen from other treads by the hebrew God.

Why was he crucified?

He must not have broken any Roman Law because (I think it was herod) that washed his hands of Jesus situation and gave him to the people to crucify him.

godfry n. glad · 08-20-2003, 08:38 AM

I've got some initial responses:

1. If there was no Jesus, there was no crucifiction of Jesus.

2. If he was divine (...as if...), he was no mere human and the crucifiction cannot be considered to have been "human sacrifice".

3. The tales were written by Greeks, not Hebrews, so the guiding cultural paradigms were somewhat different.

4. What makes you think there is no human sacrifice in Hebrew tradition? It's my understanding that if God orders an action, you do it, no questions asked. And no pouting or simpering, even if its your son or daughter.

5. Marytrdom was a popular form of religious zealotry to the Jews of the time and place.

6. You're crimping poetic license and literary imagination with niggling details about guiding liturgical traditions and impedimentary dogma.

godfry n. glad

P.S. - It was Pontius Pilate, the Roman procurator, who reputedly washed his hands of the affair and ordered the Jesus of the gospels executed anyway. Herod was a half-jew puppet governor. The gospel Jesus died a Roman insurgent's death, not a Jewish death.

Doctor X · 08-20-2003, 09:32 AM

Quote:

4. What makes you think there is no human sacrifice in Hebrew tradition? It's my understanding that if God orders an action, you do it, no questions asked. And no pouting or simpering, even if its your son or daughter.

Indeed. We have pontificated on this on another thread here on sacrifice. I quote too much an article which mentions the OT human sacrifices and decided to get one of the references. It finally arrived, and here is the opening:

Quote:

You shall not put off the skimming of the first yield of your vats. You shall give Me the first-born among your sons. You shall do the same with your cattle and your flocks: seven days it shall remain with its mother; on the eighth day you shall give it to Me. (Exod 22:28-29)

Of all the passages in the Bible that have been deemed offensive, none has been deemed so more often than this one, and none has generated greater resistance to a literal interpretation. That the God of justice and mercy should demand the first-born of herd and flock is a common stumbling-block for moderns. That he should demand the same of human families has been judged an offense much longer, indeed from biblical times themselves.

Jon D. Levenson. The Death and Resurrection of the Beloved Son: the Transformation of Child Sacrifice in Judaism and Christianity. New Haven: Yale University Press, 1993.

--J.D.

mark9950 · 08-20-2003, 09:32 AM

Quote:

What makes you think there is no human sacrifice in Hebrew tradition?

This tread

http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.p...threadid=59555

Quote:

It was Pontius Pilate, the Roman procurator

I couldnt think of his name at the time of my posting

godfry n. glad · 08-20-2003, 11:16 AM

Quote:

quote godfry:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What makes you think there is no human sacrifice in Hebrew tradition?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

respond mark:
This tread

http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread....&threadid=59555

Y'know, mark9950, I read that entire thread and not a single person provided you a scripture cite that explicitly prohibits human sacrifice and noted several instances in Genesis and the Judges 11 situation as examples of "God demanding a human sacrifice."

It seems clear to me that Hebrew tradition clearly supports the sacrifice of a human life if God demands it.

Now... Who speaks for God? That's the rub...

Quote:

quote godfry:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It was Pontius Pilate, the Roman procurator
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

reponds mark:
I couldnt think of his name at the time of my posting.

That's actually heartening. That someone could actually forget such a major player in the passion narrative....

godfry n. glad

Asha'man · 08-20-2003, 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by mark9950
Why was he crucified?

He wasn�t.

Quote:

Originally posted by mark9950
He must not have broken any Roman Law because (I think it was herod) that washed his hands of Jesus situation and gave him to the people to crucify him.

However, the Gospels are quite clear that he broke Jewish law, and the Sanhedrin found him guilty of blasphemy. The punishment for blasphemy was death by stoning, with the body being hung from a tree as a warning. Somebody later got confused between hanging the body from a tree and crucifixion.

mark9950 · 08-20-2003, 09:30 PM

Quote:

However, the Gospels are quite clear that he broke Jewish law, and the Sanhedrin found him guilty of blasphemy.

So jesus definately was a fraud and a fake,I would have looked it up.

But I burned all of my copies of the bible up last week.

I think of what I know of the OT so far I would have had him crucified too.

I say I am glad that fraud was crucified he deserved it.I think he was gay too except that part was probably taken out by the early church.(If he even lived)

Another reason for crucifixion.I hate that character jesus.

Secular Pinoy · 08-20-2003, 10:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by mark9950
But I burned all of my copies of the bible up last week.

Well, book burning is totally antithetical with the spirit of freethought and open inquiry, even if the book in question is the Bible. Your rants and semi-coherent raves in this forum makes you look even worse than some of the fundies. You should seek help.

If you no longer have a printed copy of the bible, then download one from the internet. There are PDF copies of the bible, try googling. Or use an online bible search webpage, like The Bible Gateway.

mark9950 · 08-21-2003, 07:51 PM

You should see my tread on why he deserved to be crucified.

http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.p...threadid=60904

Rick Sumner · 08-21-2003, 08:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Asha'man
However, the Gospels are quite clear that he broke Jewish law, and the Sanhedrin found him guilty of blasphemy. The punishment for blasphemy was death by stoning, with the body being hung from a tree as a warning. Somebody later got confused between hanging the body from a tree and crucifixion.

The Gospels are also quite clear that he was crucified. Why do you accept the account of the reason for execution, but dismiss the method of execution employed? The former is far easier to account for than the latter.

According to the Mishna, blaspheme occurred if, and only if, the name of God was uttered. That wasn't the charge issued against Jesus. He thus wasn't guilty of blaspheme. (San.7.6)

Regards,
Rick

08-20-2003, 07:52 AM	#1
mark9950 Banned Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: midwest usa Posts: 1,203	Why was Jesus REALLY crucified? Since human sacrifice was forbidden for sin as I have seen from other treads by the hebrew God. Why was he crucified? He must not have broken any Roman Law because (I think it was herod) that washed his hands of Jesus situation and gave him to the people to crucify him.

08-21-2003, 07:51 PM	#9
mark9950 Banned Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: midwest usa Posts: 1,203	Secular Pinoy You should see my tread on why he deserved to be crucified. http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.p...threadid=60904

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08-20-2003, 08:38 AM	#2
godfry n. glad Banned Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: portland, oregon, usa Posts: 1,190	I've got some initial responses: 1. If there was no Jesus, there was no crucifiction of Jesus. 2. If he was divine (...as if...), he was no mere human and the crucifiction cannot be considered to have been "human sacrifice". 3. The tales were written by Greeks, not Hebrews, so the guiding cultural paradigms were somewhat different. 4. What makes you think there is no human sacrifice in Hebrew tradition? It's my understanding that if God orders an action, you do it, no questions asked. And no pouting or simpering, even if its your son or daughter. 5. Marytrdom was a popular form of religious zealotry to the Jews of the time and place. 6. You're crimping poetic license and literary imagination with niggling details about guiding liturgical traditions and impedimentary dogma. godfry n. glad P.S. - It was Pontius Pilate, the Roman procurator, who reputedly washed his hands of the affair and ordered the Jesus of the gospels executed anyway. Herod was a half-jew puppet governor. The gospel Jesus died a Roman insurgent's death, not a Jewish death.

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