Dark Virtue

Ditto what enemigo said.

Would you mind explaining to us, Gamera, why the God of the universe cared SO much about such nonsense that he came up with these rediculous rules to begin with?

Open mouth, insert foot.

Gamera

[QUOTE=noah]Yep, just like I take Moses's word for it, and Isaiah's word for it, etc, etc.

Those speaking under the inspiration of God have the ring of truth. And ironically, we know more about Paul than any OT prophet, and know that his life and teachings comported with the true intent of scripture far more than any other biblical author.

Gamera

Any orthodox rabbi can tell you that. Most rational Jews realize that most of the Law is pure nonsense -- not eating shellfish, not mixing linen with cotton, not grafting fruits on fruit stock, not cutting beards. Pure nonsense. No spiritual content whatsoever.

That is the point. The Law required OBEDIENCE, and so God included a lot of nonsense to show that the Law isn't about its content, but about OBEDIENCE to God.

And of course the NT teaches that the Law ultimately shows that nobody is truly OBEDIENT to the Law, hence the need for a savior. Hence Jesus and hence the overturning of the Law, as irrelevant to Christians.

If the shoe fits, wear it.

Gamera

[QUOTE=noah]
The law does last forever -- for anyone foolish enough to try to live up to it. If you don't submit to grace, you are under Law. And you will surely be judged accordingly. You cannot be obedient to the Law. You will fail. So you're right for all the wrong reasons. Why would you want to follow the law that contemns you when God offers you grace in the form of the gospel of grace. It sounds oddly perverse.

Gamera

You've answered your own question, but don't see it. When Paul is simply giving personal advice, based on his wisdom and experience as a preacher, he tells us. The rest of the time, it's the Holy Spirit speaking through him. Get used to it, brother.

Gal 2:
1 Then after fourteen years I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, taking Titus along with me. 2 I went up by revelation; and I laid before them (but privately before those who were of repute) the gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, lest somehow I should be running or had run in vain. 3 But even Titus, who was with me, was not compelled to be circumcised, though he was a Greek. 4 But because of false brethren secretly brought in, who slipped in to spy out our freedom which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage-- 5 to them we did not yield submission even for a moment, that the truth of the gospel might be preserved for you. 6 And from those who were reputed to be something (what they were makes no difference to me; God shows no partiality) --those, I say, who were of repute added nothing to me; 7 but on the contrary, when they saw that I had been entrusted with the gospel to the uncircumcised, just as Peter had been entrusted with the gospel to the circumcised 8 (for he who worked through Peter for the mission to the circumcised worked through me also for the Gentiles), 9 and when they perceived the grace that was given to me, James and Cephas and John, who were reputed to be pillars, gave to me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised;

Gamera

Of course, Paul isn't changing the law. Jesus simply made them irrelevant to Christians through grace. The Law hasn't changed, and you're welcome to be condemned by it, if you refuse grace. But why?

By the way, you have completely misread (or rather ignored Paul's view of the Law, which is that the Law is holy and good, just not something that can save anybody)

I'll help you:

Romans 7:7 - What then shall we say? That the law is sin? By no means! Yet, if it had not been for the law, I should not have known sin. I should not have known what it is to covet if the law had not said, "You shall not covet."

Romans 7:12 - So the law is holy, and the commandment is holy and just and good.

Romans 7:14 - We know that the law is spiritual; but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Romans 7:16 - Now if I do what I do not want, I agree that the law is good.

1 Timothy 1:8 - Now we know that the law is good, if any one uses it lawfully,

noah

Actually I'm right for all the right reasons. This statement of yours poses a number of problems for you.
1) It contains a healthy dose of double talk. Saying the Laws lasts for ever means the Law applies forever. Laws don't exist unless they apply. Laws derive meaning only their relevance too each individual. If people say they no longer have to obey the Laws then the Laws have been destroyed.
2) It's obvious you haven't read your bible. Nowhere except in Paul's writings do we find any mention of it being "foolish" to obey god's Laws. You have no scriptural support for this assertion and neither does Paul.
3) Pure Paulinian fiction. Nowhere does JC/Yahweh make any statement that supports this assertion. JC/Yahweh say time and again, if you follow god's Laws you are saved. Deut 6:25
Psa 119:152-160
Concerning thy testimonies, I have known of old that thou hast founded them for ever.
Consider mine affliction, and deliver me: for I do not forget thy law.
Plead my cause, and deliver me: quicken me according to thy word.
Salvation is far from the wicked: for they seek not thy statutes.
Great are thy tender mercies, O LORD: quicken me according to thy judgments.
Many are my persecutors and mine enemies; yet do I not decline from thy testimonies.
I beheld the transgressors, and was grieved; because they kept not thy word.
Consider how I love thy precepts: quicken me, O LORD, according to thy lovingkindness.
Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments(laws) endureth for ever.

4) Meaningless. God's Laws save you. They make you righteous and wise
Pasalm 119: 142 Psalm 119 5) Actually the reverse is true. If you don't live up to it you don't get the benefits it provides you. You are not saved, Jesus/Yahweh deems you wicked you do not become wise and Jeus/Yahweh curse you Deuteronomy 11:28 for disobeying their Laws.

6) This is a long held and cherished bit of Christian misinformation and Paulinian brainwashing. It is supported nowhere by scripture. Nowhere does God say this in the bible. Nowhere. First of all you can be obedient to the Law. The bible points out a few who were: Zacharias and Elizabeth, Asa, Job and Adam. The bible also makes countless references to the "righteous".
Second of all. Why would god issue Laws that were impossible to obey? Was he joking?

7) It doesn't. It saves you. See Psalm 119
He doesn't. Grace is a purely Paulinian contrivance. It is unsupported by scripture
No one can die for another's sins Deut. 24:16

noah

More problems for you here. First of all you can't prove Paul was inspired. Second of all, I can prove he wasn't. Paul admits he wasn't inspired three times and I can extrapolate from there that if he is not inspired three times during the course of his writings, it is logical to assume he wasn't inspired elsewhere. The question is where else is he uninspired.
Secondly, I can also prove Paul is uninspired because he contradicts God's/Jesus' words in many places. Jesus/Yahweh say you are saved by their Law and Paul says you are not saved by their Law.
Paul says their Laws are a curse. Jesus/Yahweh say they are salvation.
Paul says no one is righteous. Jesus/Yahweh say some are righteous and that everyone can be righteous if they follow God's Laws.
Third, if Paul were inspired why is he contradicted by other inspired writers like Psalms 119 33-34,39-44, Mathew (5:17-20), 1 John 2:3, 1 John 5:3, Revelation 22:14 and Revelation 14:12 for example.
Paul's doctrine of Original Sin also contradicts Jesus/Yahweh as Mathew 5:17-20, Deut. 24:16
and Ezek. 18:20-22 make clear.
Your next problem is that little verse Matt. 24:35 which when combined with Mathew 5:17-20

exposes Paul for the renegade that he truly is. No amount of Christian rationalization can minimize the damage to Paul's cherished doctrine of faith in JC as a human blood sacrifice that these verses do. JC says obey the commandments forever. Then he says his word lasts forever. He's your God. Your move.

Yahweh/Jesus warns time and again against those who violate their Laws or teach others to break it. Isa 29:13Psa 50:16-17
and Deuteronomy 4:2 Jesus/Yahweh's Laws are eternal and perfect. These verses warn against violating or altering or diminishing God's Laws.
Why would Jesus/Yahweh become the very thing they warned against?

Great. More Paul. Just to let you know Gamera, citing Paul to prove Paul does not prove Paul. If you want to verify anything Paul says, you must use scripture.

noah

Sophistry. More Paul being cited to prove Paul. You have to quote scripture to prove Paul.
If you cancel Laws you are changing them. If you tell people the Laws no longer apply to them, you have cancelled them. You have diminished them. (See Deut. 4:2.)
Second, Paul has no authority in scripture to declare anyone exempt from the Laws. There is is no way out of the Laws. You have to obey them. Paul has no scriptural basis for this idea of his.
Nowhere does JC/Yahweh say you are saved by faith in Jesus as human blood sacrifice. It contradicts Jesus/Yahweh's Laws (Ezek 18:20-22).
How do perfect and eternal Laws become optional? If they're perfect, how do they become a curse or need to be circumvented?

God's Laws make no allowance for JC to show up as a human blood sacrifice which would give everyone a pass on His Laws.

By the way you call Jesus/Yahweh's Laws "the" law. Do you have it in you to call them Jesus' Laws from now on? Because that's whose Laws they are.

The problem is all of this is that Paul contradicts Jesus and his Father Yahweh' words and commands regarding their Laws. No amount of rationalization can change that. Period.
Remember Jesus said "I and the Father are one" (John 10:30). Well, what did the Father say? He said obey his Laws.
Jesus also said that anyone who does his Father's will is his brother in heaven (Matthew 12:50). Guess what his Father's will was? You guessed it:Obey His Laws. No mention of of Paul and JC as a human blood sacrifice showing up at anytime to annul His Laws, His perfect and eternal Laws.
Laws that are perfect and eternal don't need Paul or anything else to change or modify their relevance to the life of the individual. That's why they're perfect.

Paul's wrong. You and Paul need to read Ezekiel 18:20-22, Psalm 119:144, Psalm 119:152-160, Mathew 5:17-20 and Rev.22:14.

Wrong. Paul badmouths Jesus' Laws on a number of occasions. He calls it a curse (Galatians 3:10-14), a schoolmaster (Gal 3:25) he says God created His Laws so that "sin might abound" Rom.5:20, he says Jesus' Laws are something from which people needed to be delivered (Rom 7:6) etc.

Paul's wrong. You and Paul need to read Ezekiel 18:20-22, Psalm 119:144, Psalm 119:152-160, Mathew 5:17-20, Rev.22:14 and so on.


Great. You've shown Paul is as contradictory on the subject of his Saviour's Laws as he is out of touch with it.
You should be careful with this quote though. Paul is critical of Jesus' Law when he says:
This is basically saying that he would have been pure, innocent and uninitiated if it had not been for the Law. Paul is wrong here of course. The Law establishes and preserves innocence and protects from sin.

Chili

No Paul would not have been innocent and pure because original sin is native to mankind and that includes Paul.

The law, as I see it, was given to Moses for the conviction of sin and thus not to prevent sin. For this to be possible it must be deeply entrenched in our soul where it must serve as an anvil to make our sins known with a clash that seems to compound and get louder with time on its side (The Emperor Jones is good on this).

For sin to be known a stream of consciousness must exist that carves these laws into the innermost dept of our being from where they must convict the outer man of sin when these laws are violated. The conviction of sin is therefore a matter of integrity whereby we stand convicted as sinner against our own moral code, that, true enough, is along the general mindset of our tribe but wherein we are individuals nonetheless. Hence, we stand convicted, as did Paul by this law, but from where we are set free once we have died to this law. Hence, "the commandment that should have led to life brought me death. Sin found its opportunity and used the commandment first to deceive me, then to kill me" (Romans 7:10-11).

With the law dead for the Christian who died to his sin nature also religion is dead because the law is and always will be the pulse of religion.

Interesting here is that without the law it is not possible for a Christian to sin which is not a matter of theology but reality since the law was carved into our very own soul from where it served us to its very own end. To undo this law it is critical that the sinner had died and was buried in the very tomb the law had carved for him while religion built the ark that got him yonder when religion was leading the believer hither and thither with no obvious specific purpose in mind. This would be where the mystery of faith is contained in both Judaism and Catholicism. Zamjatin's WE is good on this, but not easy to read.

In the end, the law is an arbitrary bundle of taboos that was selected and designed to equal the balance of power in the mind of the believer so that someday paradise may be regained. It must therefore also be eliminated (knowledge frees) when paradise is regained and that is what the NT is all about (thanks to Peter, no doubt).

Christianity, OTH, is torn between grace and sin with no liberation is sight.