Freethought & Rationalism Archive

IamJoseph · 07-29-2009, 08:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tristan Scott

Quote:

Originally Posted by semiopen

Moses had the snake idol (Num 8:4-8) that was destroyed by Hezekiah (2 Kings 18). Examples like this suggest that if Moses was actually historical, the Israelites of that time were far from monotheistic.

Agree, I think at the time of Moses, around 1300 BCE (and for the next 4-500 years), what was going around in Canaan and even with the Egyptian (sorry Roger), was a hybrid not really monotheistic, but more henotheistic, it's even alluded to in the Pentateuch when the writers refer to other gods, they point out that they are false, of course, but there are other names, El Shaddai, or God of the Mountain, or Most High God-that alludes to the fact that there must be other, lesser gods. God explains to Moses that he appeared to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as El Shaddai, but that he is really Yahweh, non-the less, the name still aludes to there being other gods.

Those are not names but titles. El = high one; sir; big boss; etc. Hweh is an anagram of a passage of verses. Shaddai = protective shield. There are no names, descriptions or personalities given to the Creator - these are later Christian conclusions. Moses asked for a name and was only given an abstraction.

IamJoseph · 07-29-2009, 08:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by semiopen

Moses had the snake idol (Num 8:4-8) that was destroyed by Hezekiah (2 Kings 18). Examples like this suggest that if Moses was actually historical, the Israelites of that time were far from monotheistic.

Controversially, the ancient egyptians actually possessed real occultism - this was the science of the day - and it worked. The Egyptian priests correctly forsaw a redeemer coming, and that it would be via water - thus they killed male babies and threw them in the sea. The Hebrews, being in Egypt 400 years, also picked up some of these beliefs, as was seen in the golden calf story. Monotheism was a traditional belief but not yet a mandated law - till the law was given in 42 stops over 40 years in the desert.

Quote:

David had a terafim (Samuel 19-1), which is the same name as the idol Rachel stole from her father. If David was historical, having an idol in your house is not monotheistic.

Rachel's father was not a Hebrew, nor was the law of Monotheism given her. Otherwise Jacob marrying two sisters would have been a sin - it wasnt at that time. This is where the tort a law has to be 'written' down to be a law, comes from.

Quote:

The evil Manasseh was one of the better kings, although the Talmud is filled with outrageous stories about the idol worship that he condoned and mandated.

Monotheism is the first and second primal laws. Menasseh cannot be called a better king as far as the Hebrew law is concerned, and that is the required and applicable POV here.

Toto · 07-29-2009, 09:15 AM

Coveting is stalking? Egyptian magic was real? I can't keep up with all the points that are clearly wrong.

semiopen · 07-29-2009, 10:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IamJoseph

Quote:

Originally Posted by semiopen

Moses had the snake idol (Num 8:4-8) that was destroyed by Hezekiah (2 Kings 18). Examples like this suggest that if Moses was actually historical, the Israelites of that time were far from monotheistic.

Controversially, the ancient egyptians actually possessed real occultism - this was the science of the day - and it worked. The Egyptian priests correctly forsaw a redeemer coming, and that it would be via water - thus they killed male babies and threw them in the sea. The Hebrews, being in Egypt 400 years, also picked up some of these beliefs, as was seen in the golden calf story. Monotheism was a traditional belief but not yet a mandated law - till the law was given in 42 stops over 40 years in the desert.

Rachel's father was not a Hebrew, nor was the law of Monotheism given her. Otherwise Jacob marrying two sisters would have been a sin - it wasnt at that time. This is where the tort a law has to be 'written' down to be a law, comes from.

Quote:

The evil Manasseh was one of the better kings, although the Talmud is filled with outrageous stories about the idol worship that he condoned and mandated.

Monotheism is the first and second primal laws. Menasseh cannot be called a better king as far as the Hebrew law is concerned, and that is the required and applicable POV here.

With all the Egyptian skill in the dark arts they didn't know that dead babies should be disposed of with a pitchfork?

The snake idol was destroyed by Hezekiah which was considerably after the wilderness period.

David had a household idol.

Manasseh oversaw a remarkable economic recovery from the disastrous reign of Hezekiah. He was turned into the fall guy by the post exilic scribes.

Quote:

And he burned his son as an offering, and practiced soothsaying and augury, and dealt with mediums and with wizards. He did much evil in the sight of the LORD, provoking him to anger. (2 Kgs. 21:6, 2 Chron. 33:6)

In the Talmud:

He murdered Isaiah, needless to say in front of an idol. And Isaiah was his father in law. He raped married women (raping unmarried women apparently wasn't that bad). He sexually violated his sister.

He destroyed the altar in the temple and put in an idol with four faces so that whatever direction one entered, he'd be facing the idol.

But there is a happy ending, in that he repented and inherited the world to come.

As usual, the key question is were the violations of the law before or after the law existed. Another valid question is did he actually do any of this.

It appears that there was no stable monotheism until after the exile, using solely the bible to support this argument. 2 kings and chronicles are both post exilic.

Tristan Scott · 07-29-2009, 11:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IamJoseph

Those are not names but titles. El = high one; sir; big boss; etc. Hweh is an anagram of a passage of verses. Shaddai = protective shield. There are no names, descriptions or personalities given to the Creator - these are later Christian conclusions. Moses asked for a name and was only given an abstraction.

No, you're incorrect. Read Torah. Hashem tells Moses that the patriarchs called him El Shaddai, Job constantly calls Yahweh Shaddai. The most common translation for El Shaddai is God All mighty.

IamJoseph · 07-29-2009, 11:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tristan Scott

Quote:

Originally Posted by IamJoseph

Those are not names but titles. El = high one; sir; big boss; etc. Hweh is an anagram of a passage of verses. Shaddai = protective shield. There are no names, descriptions or personalities given to the Creator - these are later Christian conclusions. Moses asked for a name and was only given an abstraction.

No, you're incorrect. Read Torah. Hashem tells Moses that the patriarchs called him El Shaddai, Job constantly calls Yahweh Shaddai. The most common translation for El Shaddai is God All mighty.

El is a term predating Abraham, and means big one/high one, used by numerous belief systems - it affirms the contemporary historicity of this writing. Shaddai is an adjective. The last word on this issue is with Moses, who asked for a name directly, making it a condition of representation - he was not given one, but instead given the 13 attributes of the creator - which Yhweh is an anexogram of. A name is limiting and signifies equavelence with other names, and cannot apply here.

IamJoseph · 07-30-2009, 12:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by semiopen

Quote:

Originally Posted by IamJoseph

Controversially, the ancient egyptians actually possessed real occultism - this was the science of the day - and it worked. The Egyptian priests correctly forsaw a redeemer coming, and that it would be via water - thus they killed male babies and threw them in the sea. The Hebrews, being in Egypt 400 years, also picked up some of these beliefs, as was seen in the golden calf story. Monotheism was a traditional belief but not yet a mandated law - till the law was given in 42 stops over 40 years in the desert.

Rachel's father was not a Hebrew, nor was the law of Monotheism given her. Otherwise Jacob marrying two sisters would have been a sin - it wasnt at that time. This is where the tort a law has to be 'written' down to be a law, comes from.

Monotheism is the first and second primal laws. Menasseh cannot be called a better king as far as the Hebrew law is concerned, and that is the required and applicable POV here.

With all the Egyptian skill in the dark arts they didn't know that dead babies should be disposed of with a pitchfork?

The snake idol was destroyed by Hezekiah which was considerably after the wilderness period.

David had a household idol.

Manasseh oversaw a remarkable economic recovery from the disastrous reign of Hezekiah. He was turned into the fall guy by the post exilic scribes.

Quote:

And he burned his son as an offering, and practiced soothsaying and augury, and dealt with mediums and with wizards. He did much evil in the sight of the LORD, provoking him to anger. (2 Kgs. 21:6, 2 Chron. 33:6)

In the Talmud:

He murdered Isaiah, needless to say in front of an idol. And Isaiah was his father in law. He raped married women (raping unmarried women apparently wasn't that bad). He sexually violated his sister.

He destroyed the altar in the temple and put in an idol with four faces so that whatever direction one entered, he'd be facing the idol.

But there is a happy ending, in that he repented and inherited the world to come.

As usual, the key question is were the violations of the law before or after the law existed. Another valid question is did he actually do any of this.

It appears that there was no stable monotheism until after the exile, using solely the bible to support this argument. 2 kings and chronicles are both post exilic.

The snake example does not really denote idolatry, but was used as a test in a battle between factions. The power Moses had was chanelled here, as with his staff. Sorcery is forbidden.

Re Menaseh, the merit in the Hebrew is the bad guys are not candy coated. While economic prowess is great, it cannot be as a result of diluting monotheism, which law the king was obligated to uphold - thus he killed Isaiah for declaring the truth. We see here one of the earliest displays of king [state] VS the Law.

IamJoseph · 07-30-2009, 12:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Coveting is stalking?

Yes, it is when one plans and intends to usurp by guile, robbery or murder, as with an bsession.

Quote:

Egyptian magic was real? I can't keep up with all the points that are clearly wrong.

I used the term 'controversially' here. Sorcery was a real ancient faculty which does not exist anymore, and this is not acceptable in today's times. If it wasn't real, then there would not be a law forbdding it. However, ancient people depended on it and would forego the lives of their loves ones by it. Humanity cannot survive without magic or science: at least one facility had to be prevailing. That is why magic and sorcery is seen pervasive in all ancient writings and cultures - if this was not real, it would not have lasted more than one year.

Toto · 07-30-2009, 01:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IamJoseph

...

Quote:

Egyptian magic was real? I can't keep up with all the points that are clearly wrong.

I used the term 'controversially' here. Sorcery was a real ancient faculty which does not exist anymore, and this is not acceptable in today's times. If it wasn't real, then there would not be a law forbdding it. However, ancient people depended on it and would forego the lives of their loves ones by it. Humanity cannot survive without magic or science: at least one facility had to be prevailing. That is why magic and sorcery is seen pervasive in all ancient writings and cultures - if this was not real, it would not have lasted more than one year.

There were laws against witches, but there were no witches - only old women who became the victims of state terror.

Have you read Carl Sagan's The Demon Haunted World?

Jedi Mind Trick · 07-30-2009, 02:26 AM

Good and Evil, a sense of the dualities of existence came to us after "the fall". I think it is good speculation that when we evolved to higher brain functions from our more ape-like ancestry we lost our "innocence". I believe that animals live more in the present moment than we humans and are more in tune with the "oneness" of all things. We have developed a sense of self (Ego) and with that comes duality (good and evil).

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07-29-2009, 09:15 AM	#53
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Coveting is stalking? Egyptian magic was real? I can't keep up with all the points that are clearly wrong.

07-30-2009, 02:26 AM	#60
Jedi Mind Trick Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Indianaplolis Posts: 4,998	Good and Evil, a sense of the dualities of existence came to us after "the fall". I think it is good speculation that when we evolved to higher brain functions from our more ape-like ancestry we lost our "innocence". I believe that animals live more in the present moment than we humans and are more in tune with the "oneness" of all things. We have developed a sense of self (Ego) and with that comes duality (good and evil).

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