Freethought & Rationalism Archive

vsop44 · 06-06-2005, 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chili

. The Jordan is the river that divides Bethany from Jerusalem where Jesus and John were baptizing from opposite sides.
.

Chili : can you show me a scripture that says that Jesus baptized in the Jordan . As long as I know Jesus never baptized anyone !

In his book Rudolph augstein says that Jesus never baptized anyone which seems very strange to me considering the importance of baptism in religions

Chili · 06-07-2005, 08:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vsop44

Chili : can you show me a scripture that says that Jesus baptized in the Jordan . As long as I know Jesus never baptized anyone !

Good point and I probably can't. It is just that they were from opposite sides of the Jordan.

John Kesler · 06-08-2005, 03:08 PM

Quote:

vsop44:
Chili : can you show me a scripture that says that Jesus baptized in the Jordan . As long as I know Jesus never baptized anyone !
Chili:
Good point and I probably can't. It is just that they were from opposite sides of the Jordan.

Actually there is a passage which says that Jesus baptized:

Quote:

John 3:22-23 (NRSV)
22 After this Jesus and his disciples went into the Judean countryside, and he spent some time there with them and baptized. 23 John also was baptizing at Aenon near Salim because water was abundant there; and people kept coming and were being baptized

However, John 4:2 "clarifies" the situation:

Quote:

John 4:1-2 (NRSV)
4:1 Now when Jesus learned that the Pharisees had heard, "Jesus is making and baptizing more disciples than John" 2-- although it was not Jesus himself but his disciples who baptized--

The late Dr. Howard M. Teeple, in The Literary Origin of the Gospel of John, classifies John 4:2 as a later gloss, a viewpoint which I share.

RED DAVE · 06-08-2005, 07:23 PM

I'm variously told that "David" means either beloved or beloved of God. This would accord with his role in the Old Testament.

RED DAVID

vsop44 · 06-09-2005, 07:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Kesler

Actually there is a passage which says that Jesus baptized:

However, John 4:2 "clarifies" the situation:

The late Dr. Howard M. Teeple, in The Literary Origin of the Gospel of John, classifies John 4:2 as a later gloss, a viewpoint which I share.

The KJV bible is very clear John 4:2

Though Jesus himself baptized not , but his disciples .

Also in his book Jesus ,son of man the late Rudolf Augstein says

Quote : AS Jesus is recognized as founder of the new outward sign of the covenant : Baptism ( he who according to the gospels , never performed a single one )

Peter Kirby · 06-09-2005, 09:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vsop44

The KJV bible is

irrelevant.

best wishes,
Peter Kirby

John Kesler · 06-09-2005, 10:56 AM

I will add that if one wonders if the Greek of John 3:22 allows for the disciples to be the ones baptizing instead of Jesus, consider the following post from a member of another list I belong to. Commenting on John 3:22, she says:

Quote:

Naturally, I went to my USB Greek Testament to see what the Greek text read because it is obvious from the NAB translation that theher [sic] the word translated as "baptizing" was not a plural participle modifying them. In the English translation, it could go either way; the participle "baptizing" could modify "them" or it could modify "he," although the latter would be a stretch. But it does allow some wiggle-room for the determined inerrantist who will proffer any "could-have-been" apology. I can just hear them saying that the "baptizing" goes with "them," not with "he." In Koine Greek, a participle, being an adjective, agrees with the noun or pronoun it modifies in case, number, and gender, so if a participle had been used, it would be a simple matter to determine whether it was the "them" who were "baptizing" or the "he."

But in this verse, the Greek text does not use a participle. It reads:
. . . kai ekei dietriben met autOn kai ebaptizen.

Literal translation -- and there he [Jesus] was spending time with them and he was baptizing.

If one wonders what an editor would find so disturbing about Jesus' baptizing people, read Acts 19:1-5.

Quote:

Acts 19:1-5 NRSV
While Apollos was in Corinth, Paul passed through the interior regions and came to Ephesus, where he found some disciples. 2 He said to them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you became believers?" They replied, "No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit." 3 Then he said, "Into what then were you baptized?" They answered, "Into John's baptism." 4 Paul said, "John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in the one who was to come after him, that is, in Jesus." 5 On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

John 4's editor may have wanted to distance Jesus from John the Baptist, mitigating against the conclusion that Jesus was just a disciple (or rival) of John, especially since Jesus and John preached a similar message.

Steven Avery · 06-09-2005, 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Kesler

Literal translation -- and there he [Jesus] was spending time with them and he was baptizing.

Looking at an Interlinear (Green), and checking that alexandrian is the same as Byzantine, wouldn't it be more accurate to say the literal translation is ..

" and there [he/Jesus] was spending time with them and was baptizing."

Shalom,
Praxeus
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Messianic_Apologetic/

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06-08-2005, 07:23 PM	#14
RED DAVE Banned Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: NYC Posts: 10,532	I'm variously told that "David" means either beloved or beloved of God. This would accord with his role in the Old Testament. RED DAVID

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