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Old 02-18-2010, 01:35 AM   #31
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The teacher of Righteousness mentioned in the Dead Sea Scrolls might also be evidence for an historical Jesus.

Mythicists do not make a coherent case against these things.
Why don’t you show us how to do it?

Why don’t you make your case that the teacher of Righteousness mentioned in the Dead Sea Scrolls is evidence for a historical Jesus?

Go ahead.

And don't forget to be coherent.
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Old 02-18-2010, 01:41 AM   #32
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Loomis, thanks for the morning chuckles!

And regarding AA's quoting of Justin.

"There we have it, gentleman. What more evidence do we need?"
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Old 02-18-2010, 02:18 AM   #33
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Default Was Jesus The Teacher Of Righteousness.

From the following: http://www.duke.edu/~goranson/jannaeus.pdf

Alexander Jannaeus was described in Qumran texts as the “Wicked Priest.” The name Absalom in Pesher Habakkuk 8: 9 refers to the brother of Jannaeus with that name. Judah the Essene, known from Josephus (War 1:78-80; Ant. 15:371-9), was described as the “Teacher of Righteousness.”
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Old 02-18-2010, 02:55 AM   #34
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Ok, the best case for a mythical Jesus that would fit into the times of the ancient Jewish Christ development up into the days of Rome would be successionism of that figure in characterization implied.

The virgin birth story was most likely invented to show the purity of no sin in the created god-man Jesus. It was, after all, extremely important that Jesus be perfect. Inventing gods required particular attention be paid to the supernatural, and all the gods invented before Jesus held supernatural qualites in whatever formula's instituted by the inventors.

Borrowing attributes from past gods was a common element of construction which provided the base or foundation for another god, as well as those past beliefs that accompanied the god or goddess.

Names were also provided in the extension of new gods and goddesses. The "sons of gods" extending the name further in tradition of its being the standard whereby the ancients worshiped. Everything became an extension out of what was and what was to be. There was not one god who survived without this method of extension, and by which method we see existing today.

Jesus is constantly being changed and extended through the many new beliefs Christians invent about his person, his power, his everlasting forgiveness, his perfection,etc. Hundreds of new formed denominations prove this extension of the god-man as he is pushed into ever wider interpretations. This New World Ordered Jesus is now no longer the same NT Jesus of the past. The ancient NT Jesus is being forced into the backseat with Yahweh as a new world ordered god-man takes his place on center stage.

Just as in the ancient Hebrew god stories that have taken a backstep to time, Jesus the god-man is now being re-examined not for his historicity but for the myth of Christ that men of history created. And..even though both Yahweh and Jesus will continue to be worshiped as the gods they were created to be, their valued worth to society and the world is becoming less and less believed as truth, even by the ones who preach his name.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that successive storytelling eventually wipes out the past tall tales so that we end up with a consistent running of new ones. The new gods are here. And we as humans become the better equiped to deal with survival on a grander scale.
Wtf does all this mean?

402 words and you didn’t really say anything. It’s complete masturbation. :frown:

WTF does ALL THIS mean? Evolved storytelling. The myth that grew and grew. The biggest hoax ever perpetrated onto mankind. Did you at any time buy into it?

You counted the words? :lol:
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Old 02-18-2010, 04:31 AM   #35
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The teacher of Righteousness mentioned in the Dead Sea Scrolls might also be evidence for an historical Jesus.

Mythicists do not make a coherent case against these things.
On the contrary. The DSS are silent on the figure of Jesus. The Teacher of Righteousness is not Jesus. No scholar that I read has ever claimed otherwise.
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Old 02-18-2010, 12:04 PM   #36
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On the contrary. The DSS are silent on the figure of Jesus. The Teacher of Righteousness is not Jesus. No scholar that I read has ever claimed otherwise.
I've seen the case made in ...

Jesus: One Hundred Years Before Christ (or via: amazon.co.uk)
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Old 02-18-2010, 08:53 PM   #37
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And to reinforce your point Justin Martyr would declare "What we propose is nothing different."

If you can believe in the Sons of Jupiter you can believe in Jesus the Son of God.


This is Justin Martyr with his "nothing different Jesus" in First Apology"XXI.



See http://www.earlychristianwritings.com

Jesus was a story no different to existing stories.
Good post. You demonstrated that you understand the issues.

I am particularly fond of the way you accompanied your opinions with compelling facts and arguments.

"compelling facts"? What facts can be extracted from a myth?

I hope I'm not getting you in over your head concerning this myth of Christ.
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Old 02-18-2010, 10:20 PM   #38
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On the contrary. The DSS are silent on the figure of Jesus. The Teacher of Righteousness is not Jesus. No scholar that I read has ever claimed otherwise.
I've seen the case made in ...

Jesus: One Hundred Years Before Christ (or via: amazon.co.uk)
I haven’t read it and I can’t find it online. However I noticed that he discusses “The Letter to the Hebrews: a sermon on Psalm 110” on page 59.

What does he say?

Care to give us a synopsis?

Imho if there is any link between the DSS and Jesus/Josua, it would come by way of the Damascus Document, the Manual of Discipline, the Rule of the Congregation, Zechariah LXX, and the Letter to the Hebrews.

The common element is the idea of two messiahs (the kingly Messiah of Israel and the priestly Messiah of Aaron) – where Jesus/Josua is half of the team. If you have no idea what I’m talking about then here’s a link that will expose you to the idea of the two messiahs.

Qumran's two Messiahs

The two messiahs appear in Zechariah LXX. They are for example, the two anointed ones that stand by the Lord of the whole earth (v 4:14). If you read 3:1 and compare it to Hebrews 4:14, you will see that Jesus/Joshua is the same High Priest character. He is one of the two messiahs. At least as far as the author of Hebrews is concerned.

-------------

Also note that the robe and crown of thorns from Matthew 27:28-29 is probably a reference to the robe and crown in Zechariah 3:5-6 LXX.

-------------

You could also argue that Matthew 1:21 and 1:23 are allusions to the two messiahs – where the angel says “you will call his name Jesus” and “they will call his name Emmanuel.”
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Old 02-19-2010, 12:17 AM   #39
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I strongly recommend Ellegard.

A Jesus 100 years before Pilate is not the Gospel Jesus. The Gospel Jesus is therefore mythical.

A proto Jesus - teacher of Righteousness is also not the Gospel Jesus.

What is this false distinction about proposing a guy 100 BCE as a root and this therefore falsifying the gospel Jesus as a myth?

And we have a separate Pauline Jesus in heaven tradition?

And we have Mark as clearly a homeric play?
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Old 02-19-2010, 12:50 AM   #40
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Here are a few reasons why I believe Jesus is a complete myth.

There is no external historical confirmation for the N/T stories.

The N/T stories are internally contradictory.

There are natural explanations for the origin of the Jesus myth. [derived from the O/T]

The miracle reports make the tale unhistorical.
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