Freethought & Rationalism Archive

spin · 02-27-2005, 08:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eldarion Lathria

Actually, part of a wall of Herod's temple is still standing, the so-called Wailing or Western Wall, so the prophecy of not one stone remaining on another was false as well.

For clarity's sake, the wall that you mention is not part of the Temple at all, but a retaining wall of the temple mount. The Temple stood in the vicinity of where the Dome of the Rock now stands.

spin

spin · 02-27-2005, 08:58 PM

OK, second bite.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenshu

Example 1: Within hours of Israel's declaration of independence in 1948, Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Iraq, and Lebanon invaded Israel. The combined population of those countries was at least 20 million at that time. Israel had fewer than 1 million Jews. Even so, the Jews won the war and expanded the size of Israel by 50 percent.

What a load of codswallop. Historical revisionism raises its rampant stupid head. After committing a few atrocities such as Deir Yassin and frightening the Palestinians enough for them to flee, the Israelis stole the Palestinian land and justified it with the BIG lie that they were moving out to make way for the Arab invasion.

The Israelis (or, if you must, Israeli Jews), but not the Jews, won the war. There are Jews around the world who were not involved.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenshu

Example 2: During the War of 1967, Israel attacked the air force bases of the surrounding countries and took control of Jerusalem for the first time in about 2000 years. They also seized additional territory. That war lasted a mere 6 days.

While Judea had its capital in Jerusalem -- it was the only city of size --, there is no historical connection between Israel and Jerusalem prior to the inauguration of the modern Israeli state. The northern kingdom centred on Samaria was called Israel at least once by Assyria, but there is no historical data to show that it ever had control of Jerusalem.

Again, let's get terminology right: they stole additional territory.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenshu

Example 3: On Oct. 6, 1973, Israel was attacked by Egypt and Syria. Other countries later joined the attack. But the Jews were able to push back the attacking armies and occupy land outside of Israel's borders.

After the Israeli Zionists started the wars of 1948, 1956 and 1967 without any tangible censure, one can understand the Arab states attempting to regain what was stolen.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenshu

"If you follow my decrees and are careful to obey my commands, … You will pursue your enemies, and they will fall by the sword before you. Five of you will chase a hundred, and a hundred of you will chase ten thousand, and your enemies will fall by the sword before you."

This is Zionist propaganda and has no place in BC&H. Many Jews around the world reject the secular state of Israel shamelessly manipulating the religious implications of returning to Israel for purely political reasons.

This cited drivel has nothing to do with Leviticus and the fool who wrote the stuff knows very well.

spin

Jack the Bodiless · 02-28-2005, 06:28 AM

Quote:

In Matthew 24:1-2, Jesus said that the Temple would be destroyed. The Temple was destroyed about 40 years after Jesus was crucified by the Romans.

...And before the Gospel of Matthew, in which Jesus supposedly "said" this, was written.

Quote:

In Micah 3:11-12, the prophet Micah said that Jerusalem would be destroyed and that "Zion" - a central part of Jerusalem - would be "plowed like a field."

A prophecy that a city would be "destroyed" at some unspecified time in the future is too vague to be significant: and Jerusalem still exists.

Quote:

In Jeremiah 32:37-41, the prophet said the people of Israel would return to their homeland. Jeremiah lived during a time when the Babylonians were forcing the Jews out of their homeland about 2600 years ago. Many Jews later returned but were forced out again, by the Romans, about 1900 years ago. During the past 200 years, millions of exiled Jews have returned to Israel from countries all over the world.

I will surely gather them from all the lands where I banish them in my furious anger and great wrath; I will bring them back to this place and let them live in safety. They will be my people, and I will be their God.

Failed prophecy. They came back, but didn't "live in safety", they were forced out again.

Quote:

In Isaiah 35:1-2, the prophet said that although Israel would become a desolate land, its deserts would one day bloom again. This Bible verse foreshadows the restoration of Israel that has been taking place since the early 1900s. Millions of Jews have returned to their ancient homeland and have innovated sophisticated farming techniques and extensive reforestation programs to convert parched desert into productive farmland. More than 200 million trees have been planted in Israel since 1900, according to the Jewish National Fund.

The desert and the parched land will be glad; the wilderness will rejoice and blossom. Like the crocus, it will burst into bloom; it will rejoice greatly and shout for joy. The glory of Lebanon will be given to it, the splendor of Carmel and Sharon; they will see the glory of the Lord, the splendor of our God.

Again, a failed prophecy because of the timing. AFTER this was written, the restored Jewish state was invaded, its people scattered, and it became a wasteland.

Quote:

In Isaiah 66:7-8, the prophet foreshadowed the re-birth of Israel in 1948. Isaiah describes a woman giving birth before going into labor, and he speaks of a country being born in one day. This accurately describes what happened on May 14, 1948 - when the Jews declared independence for Israel as a united and sovereign nation for the first time in 2900 years.

"Before she goes into labor, she gives birth; before the pains come upon her, she delivers a son. Who has ever heard of such a thing? Who has ever seen such things? Can a country be born in a day or a nation be brought forth in a moment? Yet no sooner is Zion in labor than she gives birth to her children."

Israel wasn't "born in a day", there were serious "labor pains", including a campaign of Zionist terrorism against the British.

Quote:

In Leviticus 26:3, 7-8, the Bible says that the army of Israel would have a supernatural power to prevail during times of conflict, if the people are obedient to the Lord. This Bible passage says that 5 people would be able to chase away 100 people, and that 100 would be able to chase away 10,000. Is there any proof to this incredible claim? Judge for yourself:...

The Babylonians enslaved them. The Romans defeated them. The Nazis exterminated 6 million of them. Was this because they hadn't been "obedient to the Lord" by accepting Jesus? Apologists would like to think so: but did the Jews suddenly convert to Christianity before winning their more recent battles? Of course not.

Anat · 02-28-2005, 07:14 AM

spin, would you feel any better if the state of Israel were named Judah? It was one of the candidate names. (The name was chosen pretty much at the last moment. That is why the first stamps issued by the state of Israel have 'doar ivri' on them rather than the country's name.) But then, Jews had been referring to themselves as 'Israel' (among other names) for quite a long time by then.

Regarding the place of the state of Israel in Jewish thought - opinions indeed vary - from the belief that attempting to haste the redemption is sinful, via denial of any religious significance all the way to Rav Kook's belief that the founding of the state is the beginning of the Messianic age. Yeshayahu Leibowitz tried to get a discussion going about the religious significance of the state of Israel (he believed it had some kind of significance, though rejected Kook's messianism) but was ignored.

Tenshu, a majority of the victims of the Holocaust were pious Orthodox Jews, whereas a majority of the Jewish population of Israel was secular.

I'll leave out discussion of the various wars.

spin · 02-28-2005, 08:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anat

spin, would you feel any better if the state of Israel were named Judah?

My comment was directed at the person who was manipulating data. A country can call itself whatever it wants. I was more interested in showing that the material didn't do what it claimed. It was typical bending of facts to fit "prophecy".

Tenshu, Tenshu, ferry muck.

spin

Tenshu · 02-28-2005, 12:04 PM

Sorry if this post was offensive to you. I don't know what ferry muck means, but I'm not the one manipulating data. Again, I'm not the one who wrote this: I just copy and pasted all of what my debate opponent said. I had a rough draft of what to say, but apparently I was looking too far; in hindsight, the dishonesty was so big that I missed it.

I apologize for wasting your time. It was a big help for me though, so thanks.

spin · 02-28-2005, 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenshu

Sorry if this post was offensive to you. I don't know what ferry muck means, but I'm not the one manipulating data.

Sorry, I was referring to your source.

"Tenshu ferry muck" was gratis, in case someone was attuned to such stupidity as mine. It's based on a number of linguistic and orthographic errors, but roughly ends up "thank you very much".

spin

Amaleq13 · 02-28-2005, 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

"Tenshu ferry muck" was gratis, in case someone was attuned to such stupidity as mine. It's based on a number of linguistic and orthographic errors, but roughly ends up "thank you very much".

How do I get de-attuned? I got it immediately and I am deeply troubled by that fact.

spin · 02-28-2005, 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amaleq13

How do I get de-attuned? I got it immediately and I am deeply troubled by that fact.

It takes a deeply troubled person...

How did you cope with this?

Furless Leater

Amaleq13 · 02-28-2005, 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

How did you cope with this?

Furless Leater

Pretty well but I have had a little practice over at the Heathen Hangout or whatever they are calling it now.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

02-28-2005, 07:14 AM	#14
Anat Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: home Posts: 3,715	spin, would you feel any better if the state of Israel were named Judah? It was one of the candidate names. (The name was chosen pretty much at the last moment. That is why the first stamps issued by the state of Israel have 'doar ivri' on them rather than the country's name.) But then, Jews had been referring to themselves as 'Israel' (among other names) for quite a long time by then. Regarding the place of the state of Israel in Jewish thought - opinions indeed vary - from the belief that attempting to haste the redemption is sinful, via denial of any religious significance all the way to Rav Kook's belief that the founding of the state is the beginning of the Messianic age. Yeshayahu Leibowitz tried to get a discussion going about the religious significance of the state of Israel (he believed it had some kind of significance, though rejected Kook's messianism) but was ignored. Tenshu, a majority of the victims of the Holocaust were pious Orthodox Jews, whereas a majority of the Jewish population of Israel was secular. I'll leave out discussion of the various wars.

02-28-2005, 12:04 PM	#16
Tenshu Regular Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Belgium Posts: 332	Sorry if this post was offensive to you. I don't know what ferry muck means, but I'm not the one manipulating data. Again, I'm not the one who wrote this: I just copy and pasted all of what my debate opponent said. I had a rough draft of what to say, but apparently I was looking too far; in hindsight, the dishonesty was so big that I missed it. I apologize for wasting your time. It was a big help for me though, so thanks.

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.