Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Iskander · 01-16-2013, 04:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

I know it was a long period. I was just wondering whether in fact there were elements of the population who for centuries in Europe were never really invested in Catholicism, and who had either been part of actual sects or just informally did not follow the teachings of the church in favor of other traditions, and that it was these populations who joined Protestantism as opposed to other old populations remained with Catholicism. However, Sotto Voce seems to offer a different and useful explanation of economic conditions in the various countries as being a major factor for whether or not people joined Protestantism. I suppose Germany and Austria were also in between since they are divided between Catholics and Protestants..

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The Waldenses, leaning upon the Scriptures, sought to revive the simple precepts of the Apostolic age. They were the strictly biblical sect of the Middle Ages. This fact, and the pitiless and protracted persecutions to which they were subjected, long ago won the sympathies of the Protestant churches. They present a rare spectacle of the survival of a body of believers which has come up out of great tribulation.

Southern France was their first home, but they were a small party as compared with the Albigenses in those parts. From France they spread into Piedmont, and also into Austria and Germany, as recent investigations have clearly brought out. In Italy, they continue to this day in their ancestral valleys and, since 1870, endowed with full rights of citizenship. In Austria, they kept their light burning as in a dark place for centuries, had a close historic connection with the Hussites and Bohemian Brethren, and prepared, in some measure, the way for the Anabaptists in the time of the Reformation.

The "slaughter'd Saints" of line 1 refer to the Waldensians or Vaudois, a proto-protestant sect that had inhabited the mountainous Piedmont region since the late 12th century

http://www.dartmouth.edu/~milton/rea...18/index.shtml

Sonnet 18
On the late Massacher in Piemont

Avenge O Lord thy slaughter'd Saints, whose bones
Lie scatter'd on the Alpine mountains cold,
Ev'n them who kept thy truth so pure of old
When all our Fathers worship't Stocks and Stones,
Forget not: in thy book record their groanes [ 5 ]
Who were thy Sheep and in their antient Fold
Slayn by the bloody Piemontese that roll'd
Mother with Infant down the Rocks. Their moans
The Vales redoubl'd to the Hills, and they
To Heav'n. Their martyr'd blood and ashes sow [ 10 ]
O're all th' Italian fields where still doth sway
The triple Tyrant: that from these may grow
A hunder'd-fold, who having learnt thy way
Early may fly the Babylonian wo.

Sheshbazzar · 01-16-2013, 05:23 PM

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But the fact that Protestantism did not conquer all or most of Europe means that not everyone was looking to throw off the yoke of the papacy (and never did even later on)

Human nature. There are always sycophants to power. And a lot of people liked the thinly disguised idolatry of Catholicism and having someone else doing all of their thinking about religion for them, 'Just tell us what to do' sheeple.
And then there were many places where the local craftsmen had long been making a pretty good living from the manufacture and sales of Catholic idols and trinkets.
"Great is Artimis of the Ephesians!" having been long since replaced with "Great is Mother Maria of Roma!"
'Wanna buy a nice'a icon of Maria Mother of God?
We kin build you'a nice'a niche inna da wall,
an even givva ya dis here solid silver crucifex all fer only 40 dennri.
You already'a got'sa Maria ya say??? We also gots Iesus an Santos Paulos en Petros fer sale.
For small fee the Friar will come and bless yor house and icons an keep da lupe garou away!
What you say?

Iskander · 01-16-2013, 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

Most of 'common people', were illiterate even in their own languages, and the Orthodox church had long kept the Scriptural texts locked up in Latin and thus quite inaccessible to anyone who did not go through the Catholic 'system' to get their religious education, and by the time anyone had went through that wringer they might know Latin, but they had also well learned not to mess with the dogmas and Decrees of Catholicism.
And the Church of Rome kept a very tight rein on the teachings and opinions of its Bishops and Friars.

The common persons religion in Medieval Europe thus consisted of what the Roman Church told them about Iesu Khristos, mixed in with folk superstitions and barely syncretized holdovers from their older ancestral religions. (gee.. that sounds a lot like modern America.)
Perhaps quite a few detected that they were being screwed by the Popery, but they knew enough to keep their mouths shut, and wait for a better time to throw off Roman control.
When that opportunity finally came, when they no longer had to live in daily terror of the long arm of Rome, they abandoned her in droves.
But it has been a hard road for Protestantism to throw off many of the perverse ideas and doctrines that long bedding with that old whore has infected them with.
Clinging to her lying history, and her fabricated 'church fathers' and 'saints' and what they allegedly taught has always, and still does, burden Protestantism with a load of Popish horse shit.

Valdenses were nice people.

Quote:

The first distinguishing principle of the Waldenses bore on daily conduct and was summed up in the words of the Apostles, "we ought to obey God rather than men." This the Catholics interpreted to mean a refusal to submit to the authority of the pope and prelates. All the early attacks against them contain this charge.1077 powers that be are ordained of God. This was, perhaps, the first positive affirmation of a Scriptural ground for religious independence made by the dissenting sects of the Middle Ages. It contains in it, as in a germ, the principle of full liberty of conscience as it was avowed by Luther at Worms.

The second distinguishing principle was the authority and popular use of the Scriptures.
Here again the Waldenses anticipated the Protestant Reformation without realizing

The third principle was the importance of preaching and the right of laymen to exercise that function. Peter Waldo and his associates were lay evangelists. All the early documents refer to their practice of preaching as one of the worst heresies of the Waldenses and an evident proof of their arrogance and insubordination

The Waldenses went still further in shocking old-time custom and claimed the right to preach for women as well as for men,

It was an equally far-reaching principle when the Waldenses declared that it was spiritual endowment, or merit, and not the Church’s ordination which gave the right to bind and loose, to consecrate and bless.1082ter the Lord’s Supper. No priest, continuing in sin, could administer the eucharist, but any good layman might.1083so charged that the Waldenses allowed laymen to receive confessions and absolve.

As for the administration of baptism, there were also differences of view between the Waldenses of Italy and those of France. There was a disposition, in some quarters at least, to deny infant baptism and to some extent the opinion seems to have prevailed that infants were saved without baptism.

Sheshbazzar · 01-16-2013, 06:06 PM

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Valdenses were nice people.

I don't doubt the sincerity of people that try.

Cheerful Charlie · 01-18-2013, 07:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

I know it was a long period. I was just wondering whether in fact there were elements of the population who for centuries in Europe were never really invested in Catholicism, and who had either been part of actual sects or just informally did not follow the teachings of the church in favor of other traditions, and that it was these populations who joined Protestantism as opposed to other old populations remained with Catholicism. However, Sotto Voce seems to offer a different and useful explanation of economic conditions in the various countries as being a major factor for whether or not people joined Protestantism. I suppose Germany and Austria were also in between since they are divided between Catholics and Protestants..

The Hussites. Jan Hus's reformation got him executed for heresy ad plunged Northen Europe into the Hussite wars. The RCC instituted no less than 4 official crusades against the Hussites. Luther's Reformation started almost exactly 100 years later. Luther would write that he found nothing in Jan Hus' writings he could disagree with.
This is not to say Hus inspired Luther, but that the various corrupt practices of the RCC did not end with Hus's death or the wars, and still deeply offended many making Luther's protests effective because of support for reform. This time military force failed the RCC. In part because Pope Alexander squandered the money collected for the crusades on high living and nepotistic erichment of his large extended family.
Also power grabs by the papacy had made the Germans dislike the RCC enough to fight it.

Cheerful Charlie

Chili · 01-18-2013, 09:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iskander

little flames of heresy shot forth [

I like that line, to say that fire drives heresy, the lucifer kind that kept them awake all nigth like a candle burning inside their head.

It is all fire that caused these movements and still does to this very day, except now we have 20.000 fires of diferent color burning within.

And there is nothing wrong with the people. The wrong only is that they think they can ride a high horse to heaven and that just not work.

Chili · 01-18-2013, 09:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sotto voce

The proto-Protestants of Europe were mostly clerics in universities, who did not conceive of a church that could be in schism, but rather, should be reformed to be in line with New Testament precepts. (This was despite the NT's teaching that the church could never be a volkskirche, could never be universal.) So the likes of Cathars were an irrelevance; and, because the early thinkers were mostly in England and Scotland, largely out of mind, anyway.

It was papacy that ensured schism, by its total refusal to change; not by the intentions of those who wanted change.

The papacy was right, of course. Rather than modify its theology in a biblical direction, it actually hardened its stance in the Counter-Reformation, in a bid to quell dissent. The reason for this was that it was ever a political, rather than spiritual organisation. The early reformers had supposed otherwise.

I agree with them too simply because they seem to have a secret to enter heaven by faith in good works as Catholic so that their richess may be enjoyed when they get there, and obviously do not have to die first.

This would be the pitfall of passage reading on their own, and so Latin was their choice of language so they would not be misled by the flat meaning of words that is there only as feed for the wolves who read with curious eyes.

The early reformers were all those with their eyes half open when they entered the race and never finished it either and so died nonetheless. The nonetheless here means that they did not finish the race, and so died as saved-sinner we call them today.

Iskander · 01-19-2013, 05:21 AM

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Originally Posted by Chili

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iskander

little flames of heresy shot forth [

I like that line, to say that fire drives heresy, the lucifer kind that kept them awake all nigth like a candle burning inside their head.

It is all fire that caused these movements and still does to this very day, except now we have 20.000 fires of diferent color burning within.

And there is nothing wrong with the people. The wrong only is that they think they can ride a high horse to heaven and that just not work.

The word “heresy” has nothing to do with heaven. Heresy describes a political struggle and its goal is political freedom from the emperor of Rome.

People everywhere suffered under the Catholic Caligula, the Catholic Nero that sings hail Marys as he watches the peasants burn.

The robber of pagan titles and Italian lands who replaced Constantine on the throne of Rome had made political resistance to his imperial crown a crime against god to legitimize the torture and the burning of his opponents and to install servile fear in the hearts and minds of everybody.

Sola fide was at the time the political weapon with which to defend basic principles of justice against the emperor of Rome.

Chili · 01-19-2013, 07:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iskander

The word “heresy” has nothing to do with heaven. Heresy describes a political struggle and its goal is political freedom from the emperor of Rome.

People everywhere suffered under the Catholic Caligula, the Catholic Nero that sings hail Marys as he watches the peasants burn.

The robber of pagan titles and Italian lands who replaced Constantine on the throne of Rome had made political resistance to his imperial crown a crime against god to legitimize the torture and the burning of his opponents and to install servile fear in the hearts and minds of everybody.

Sola fide was at the time the political weapon with which to defend basic principles of justice against the emperor of Rome.

Bullshit, heretics were fornicators of other peoples mind wherein they were leaders of the pack with the itch to preach the other Gospel Paul wrote about.

There was freedom to believe, or not to believe, and there was freedom to believe what each individual wants to believe, but the national religion was Catholic and not Christian as that was viewed as the anti-christ that speads like fire and still does today.

So it was OK to be a wolf, but not to scatter the flock and that was politically enforced. In this sense can you be a wolf and still be Catholic and go to church, or not, but do not mislead the flock by 'leading them to Jesus' was their argumant as he is the one who must call himself. So it is a hands-off religion so that the thief can come at night.

And they do not keep track if you go to church or not, because not going to church is also part of the act. No record is kept, ever, not even if you donate money, or not, except if you leave your name on it for Income tax purpose or for selective seating in front as self righteous Catholic.

All they did was make Catholicism the national religion after 400 years of fiery preachers fornicating everyone they could, wherein the people were torn between right and wrong in all directions and their 'call to order' was to stamp out this mental fornication of simple believers of any religion that was then.

In this sense Catholic was cold, and virgin to the end to remain innocent like Nicodemus was and therefore said 'huh?' and that is iconic too. The "huh' means tell me more and is the prompt that these wolves are after in every protestant religion except "United" maybe.

Oh, and I know that fire will escalate because it is very hot, and burns by day and night, which must be obvious to anyone.

Chili · 01-19-2013, 08:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iskander

People everywhere suffered under the Catholic Caligula, the Catholic Nero that sings hail Marys as he watches the peasants burn.

/

Sola fide was at the time the political weapon with which to defend basic principles of justice against the emperor of Rome.

To sing hail Mary's was a form of validation to counter the Jesus songs heretics were singing when they were led before the Inquisitor as that itself is evidence that they were 'on fire for the Lord' as their Jesus and personal savior.

Sola fide is 'to abandon good works' and that is the gold they gathered. It is all done as evidence and so do them a favor, while in fact the good works must become the mansion magnified in heaven here on earth for which only attachment is denied by placing reason subservient to inutition, which is Mary as the woman of the TOL in the mind of the believer.

All they do was iconic to affirm they did it right.

In their ideal heaven on earth is the have full relation with Mary inside the mind of the believer.

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