aa5874

I need to know what you understand because if we both ask questions then nothing will be resolved.

I have ALREADY shown that Tertullian was NOT known or recognised by Apologetic sources up to the end of the 4th century as an author of any works Against Marcion or Heretics.

I have ALSO shown that Apologetic Sources CONTRADICT "Against Marcion". Based on Hippolytus, an Apologetic source, Marcion did NOT use the Pauline writings.

Based on Justin Martyr and Aristides, Apologetic sources, there was no known Pauline writings up to the middle of the 2nd century.

Based on Origen, an Apologetic source, Marcion did NOT Mutilate the Gospels.

Based on Ephraim, another Apologetic source, Marcion did NOT USE the Pauline writings.

Please, do you have any other evidence or written statements from antiquity to help to resolve the matter?

When was "Against Marcion" written? It was NOT in the 2nd century based on the Evidence.

Duvduv

Fine, so WHO WROTE GALATIANS, CORINTHIANS, THESSALONIANS, EPHESIANS, ETC. AND WHEN AND WHERE? And WHO wrote GMark, GMAtthew, GLuke and GJohn and when and where?? AND who wrote ACTS?

aa5874

There are many versions of those writings. Which versions are you referring to?

Duvduv

WHO originated the original set of epistles attributed to "Paul", and the same for the canonical gospels and when?

Bingo the Clown-O

I’ve come to respect aa5874’s point of view. He tears things apart but doesn’t spend much time speculating.

Sometimes it would be great to hear his personal opinions on things. But ironically this forum is overrun by believers, and speculation always drives the subject down to the lowest common denominator. Over and over. The thread ends up going nowhere.

It would be great if this site could host a forum strictly for non-believers. A fun conversation once in a while would be great.

aa5874

I do not know what originals you are talking about. Do you have originals of the so-called Pauline Epistles and the Canonical gospels?

At this time the evidence suggests that the Pauline writings and the Activities of Paul were UNKNOWN AFTER the Fall of the Jewish Temple c 70 CE up to at least the mid 2nd century based on the Earliest gMark, the writings of Philo, Josephus, Tacitus, Suetonius, Pliny the younger, Justin Martyr, Aristides, and "Against Heresies" 2.22.

I don't think we will ever find out who actually FIRST wrote the Pauline writings except that the abundance of evidence suggests that they were UNKNOWN up to at least 100 years AFTER the reign of Claudius, at least 100 years AFTER they were supposedly written.

Similarly, based on the Earliest gMark, Philo, Josephus, Tacitus, Suetonius, and Pliny the younger, the character called Jesus Christ was UNKNOWN up to the End the 1st century.

Duvduv

Hello...
I am not talking about the first or second centuries.
I am talking about whenever they were composed later.
Based on their content how did they come into being through an alleged conspiracy of the Roman regime to establish a new religion?!
The texts are obviously not uniform ideologically, so how did this develop?
This is dependent on your own hypothesis of the events leading to the creation of the new religion.

Duvduv

Let's go a little further to find supposedly Origen writing commentaries on the epistles in the EARLY third century, taking for granted that the reader is acquainted with those textsa FULL century before anything had canonical status in Alexandria, which did not even then acquire universal acceptance. And he was writing as a n orthodox member of "the Church " (what Church? ). And doing so a few decades after Justin's writings which mention nothing about epistles.
Of course we have ONE MAN to "thank" for getting everything into "historical perspective" and thst being Eusebius, who we are supposed to accept as the "gospel truth " on such historical matters.

Toto

Duvduv - it is not clear to me if your question is a rhetorical challenge to those who believe the NT was written late, or a real question.

Duvduv

Hi, Toto. I do not believe the NT texts were written in either the first or second centuries. I do not believe the statements by Irenaeus or Tertullian were written in the 2nd century. I also don't think Origen was writing commentaries on the canonical epistles in the early third century as if his readers took for granted these texts, when there was no centralized "church" to make these texts official.

HOWEVER, I am trying to get at the bottom of how these texts came into being and by whom and when. I do not understand how a conspiratorial committee headed by Eusebius could have composed all of it without taking into account all the patent contradictions and differences in theology rather than making them all correspond to each other.

Why would a conspiratorial committee under Constantine compose Matthew, John, Galatians and Hebrews?
Why would they write Acts which contradicts epistles concerning "the Small One"?

It's easier to say they were all invented in the fourth century than to actually describe how this would have happened say between 325and 375.