Freethought & Rationalism Archive

mountainman · 04-21-2013, 04:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Onias

Mountainman,
I tend to agree with you!
But can you give examples of how Constantine does his mocking?

The reference to Constantine being a "mocker rather than a flatterer" comes from the 4th century historical Aurelius Victor.

One example is the account of one historian who reports that he and his army did not join in the religious celebrations at one stage in Rome.

Another example can be found by reading his letters to Arius of Alexandria.

Here is one such letter with an analysis.

Another example may be furnished by his dealing with Sopater, head of the Platonic academy c.336 CE. Sopater was publically executed.

Another example is his agenda for the destruction of the pagan temples.

Another example is provided in his legislations (See Extracts from the Codex Theodosianus (313 to 453 CE)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Constantine's Laws

315 16.8.1 "Any Jew who stones a Jewish convert to Christianity shall be burned, and no one is allowed to join Judaism.

321 16.10.1 "If the palace should be struck by lightning, customary consultation of soothsayers may follow."

321 16.2.4 "At death, people shall have the right to leave property to the Church."

326 16.2.6 There shall be limits on the number of people entering the clergy; people shall not become clerics in order to avoid public service.

326 16.5.1 Religious privileges are reserved for Christians.

I trust this serves as a brief answer to your question.

εὐδαιμονία | eudaimonia

maryhelena · 04-21-2013, 09:26 PM

OK, guys - please take your discussion of Roman conspiracy theories to another thread. The OP is seeking to deal with Hasmonean/Jewish history........:banghead:

Onias · 04-22-2013, 09:25 PM

Mary,
Constantine is relevant to the gospels that are considered by many to be a part of Jewish history (although non-Jews may have played a major role in their production and redactic evolution.
Onias

maryhelena · 04-22-2013, 10:01 PM

Onias

The period of Hasmonean/Jewish history referenced in the chart is from when Antigonus became King and High Priest of the Jews, 40 b.c. (executed by Rome in 37 b.c. ) - to the death of the last King of Judea, Agrippa I, around 44 b.c. Those years are the focus of the OP.

Constantine is dated, re Wikipedia, 272 - 337 c.e. Whatever Constantine was up to re developments in Christianity during his life - dating of such alleged involvement, while perhaps interesting in and off itself, has no relevance to the creation of the gospel story of JC. If you want to discuss Constantine and his alleged involvement in the developing Christianity of his time - please start a thread on that topic. This thread is not the place for such a discussion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Onias

Mary,
Constantine is relevant to the gospels that are considered by many to be a part of Jewish history (although non-Jews may have played a major role in their production and redactic evolution.
Onias

Onias · 04-22-2013, 10:30 PM

Mary,
Though Constantine lived outside of the period you mention, his comments are relevant to the time period of the gospels and whatever temporal events led to their creation previously.
Onias

maryhelena · 04-22-2013, 10:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Onias

Mary,
Though Constantine lived outside of the period you mention, his comments are relevant to the time period of the gospels and whatever temporal events led to their creation previously.
Onias

Onias

Then, if that is your proposition - how about starting your own thread on Constantine. This thread is dealing with a far earlier time frame: Hasmonean/Jewish history up until the death of the last King of Judea in about 44 c.e. The focus of this thread does not reach the time of Constantine.

steve_bnk · 04-22-2013, 10:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maryhelena

Quote:

Originally Posted by Onias

Mary,
The problem with your view is that we do not have the original MSS of the gospels. We just have the extant versions that may have been so heavily redacted that they may bear little resemblance to the originals. Think of the extant gospels as an omelet or quiche . . . with the original gospel MSS being the scrambled eggs and the added ingredients being the redactions.

To my mind, the original MSS were purely messianic docs written with similar content and style as the War Scroll and other militant anti-Roman DSS. But over time they were redacted by the Romans into a less subversive doc that instead preached pacifism and love for their (Roman) enemies and their tax-collectors, etc. In other words, A doc the Romans could not only accept but promote as their state religion. For spice, add in a generous measure of lampooning of the failed messianic figures generically represented as 'Jesus', a comic and impotent excuse for salvation. . . especially when he 'resurrects' and disappears into heaven rather than to fight the Roman occupiers as his followers expected. If you listen very closely, you can hear the (Roman) gods laughing, along with myself. :funny:
Onias

Sure, no original documents. However, it's the basic story that has to be unraveled, understood, searched for clues etc. The foundation of that story is a Jewish messiah figure executed by Rome. I don't think that basic story has suffered with it's re-telling. That's the 'man of war' element in the composite JC figure. Whatever happened down the line with Romans using that story for whatever means - does not change the basic story.

Onias, let me make one thing very clear. I do not buy any conspiracy theories regarding the creation of the gospel story. No more that I would buy any conspiracy story related to the stories in the OT. These stories are what they are: A re-telling in mythological form, symbolic or prophetic form, of a Jewish interpretation of their history, or their take on their origin story.

Nicely framed.

Onias · 04-22-2013, 11:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maryhelena

Quote:

Originally Posted by Onias

Mary,
Though Constantine lived outside of the period you mention, his comments are relevant to the time period of the gospels and whatever temporal events led to their creation previously.
Onias

Onias

Then, if that is your proposition - how about starting your own thread on Constantine. This thread is dealing with a far earlier time frame: Hasmonean/Jewish history up until the death of the last King of Judea in about 44 c.e. The focus of this thread does not reach the time of Constantine.

Mary, With respect, this thread has been inactive for many months until I recently revived it. If you wish to see it ignored again, I can post another thread.
Onias

maryhelena · 04-22-2013, 11:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Onias

Quote:

Originally Posted by maryhelena

Quote:

Originally Posted by Onias

Mary,
Though Constantine lived outside of the period you mention, his comments are relevant to the time period of the gospels and whatever temporal events led to their creation previously.
Onias

Onias

Then, if that is your proposition - how about starting your own thread on Constantine. This thread is dealing with a far earlier time frame: Hasmonean/Jewish history up until the death of the last King of Judea in about 44 c.e. The focus of this thread does not reach the time of Constantine.

Mary, With respect, this thread has been inactive for many months until I recently revived it. If you wish to see it ignored again, I can post another thread.
Onias

Onias

Indeed - and I suggested on the JM list that this thread was still open if anyone wanted to discuss Hasmonean/Jewish history as it relates to the composite gospel JC figure.

OK - you started the thread up again. But where are you trying to take it? To the time of Constantine! And that, Onias, is not on. The history of Constantine is not the focus of this thread. So - start up a thread dealing with your theories about Constantine......:wave:

mountainman · 04-23-2013, 04:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maryhelena

Bottom line in all of this - either Hasmonean/Jewish history is relevant to the creators of the gospel JC figure - and hence relevant to the gospel JC story - or it is not.

For the sake of the argument, let's suppose that the Hasmonean/Jewish history is relevant to the creators of the gospel JC figure. This is not a bottom line it is a starting point. You need develop an hypothesis relating to the questions WHO used this parallel history, and WHEN, and considering the political context of WHEN, outline WHY these gospel authors did what they did. Otherwise you are just shuffling unknowns.

You have previously put forward Philo as the gospel author who used, for arguments sake, the Hasmonean/Jewish history to create the gospel JC figure. Why do you put forward Philo or why do you think this happened in the first century, and not for example, in the second.

εὐδαιμονία | eudaimonia

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04-21-2013, 09:26 PM	#82
maryhelena Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: England Posts: 2,527	OK, guys - please take your discussion of Roman conspiracy theories to another thread. The OP is seeking to deal with Hasmonean/Jewish history........:banghead:

04-22-2013, 09:25 PM	#83
Onias Regular Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Primary residence in New York State Posts: 231	Mary, Constantine is relevant to the gospels that are considered by many to be a part of Jewish history (although non-Jews may have played a major role in their production and redactic evolution. Onias

04-22-2013, 10:30 PM	#85
Onias Regular Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Primary residence in New York State Posts: 231	Mary, Though Constantine lived outside of the period you mention, his comments are relevant to the time period of the gospels and whatever temporal events led to their creation previously. Onias

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