Freethought & Rationalism Archive

WVIncagold · 06-15-2010, 09:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

The verse in question may actually be referring to a poisoner rather than a witch. Josephus writes;

Quote:

34. Let no one of the Israelites keep any poison (29) that may cause death, or any other harm; but if he be caught with it, let him be put to death, and suffer the very same mischief that he would have brought upon them for whom the poison was prepared.
http://www.earlyjewishwritings.com/t...Note_ANT_4.29a

In either case it is a command to kill the person. for My purposes it worked just fine though. I love the irony of one make belief=ve thing telling people to kill another make believe thing. They may as well of written Suffer not a griffen to live. it makes as much sense. Albeit some people identifiy themseles as witches they are just as batshit crazy as people who believe in a telpathic flying space zombie who gave birth to himself.

rizdek · 06-15-2010, 09:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WVIncagold

Interesting day I had on the Metro. There was several people on the train causing a ruckus and quite frankly disturbing the riders with their praise jesus and bigoted hatred towards an obviosly gay couple. It pissed me off something fierce. All their hate speech about adam and steve and the usual burn in hell crap. So I politely walked over to them which caused them to stop saying anything and anounced myself as a Witch. I told them "I am a Witch. by order of your god you must kill me now." "Exodus 22:18 says, "Suffer not a witch to live."
They looked at me blankly
Again I looked at them very calmly and said "your god ORDERS you to kill me I have outed to you that i am a witch and have divined."
They were shocked sensless.
So once more I told them "Iam a witch and saying it thrice you must know it be true for I have so bound myslf to the truth as required by the Fae." thier Eyes got super wide and they clutched their bibles so tight I could see their knuckles turning white. Then doors opened up and they all nearly killed each other leaving the train. The gay couple looked at me with what I could only interpret as gratitude. I sat back down and enjoyed my Harry Dresden Summer Knight paperback.
I hate bullies in all forms. It was funny to see these people spouting fire and brimstone be turned into quiet church mice since they were lacking any tesiclular fortitude to do what their bible actually says. I am not sure why i did it but it came to my while my reading was being interupted (the Dreden files is about a wizard dective and are a great series). Also keep in mind I am a HUGE man at 6'5" and well over 300 so I am pretty confident no one in their group was going to attempt anything, most of them are cowards to the core anyways which is why i think they are bamboozled by such nonsense. Yes I took a risk but it pretty much showed how week their god really is. Of course they probably will go to church to night claiming they met a true Witch (which i am not I just play one on the Metro):devil1:.

But it basically shows push come to shove most if not all of these people today are more afraid of secular laws then they are of gods law.

:notworthy:

Joan of Bark · 06-16-2010, 05:32 AM

... or you could have pointed out that you've worked on the sabbath, and worn clothes of two kinds of material, or maybe even sown your field with two kinds of seeds ...

arnoldo · 06-16-2010, 08:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Exodus 22:18

Quote:

In the original Hebrew manuscript, the author used the word m'khashepah to describe the person who should be killed. The word means a woman who uses spoken spells to harm others - e.g. causing their death or loss of property. Clearly "evil sorceress" or "woman who does evil magic" would be the most accurate phrases in today's English usage for this verse.

That is from religioustolerance.org, which is pro-pagan and pro-tolerance, so they may be exaggerating the requirement of doing "evil."

This source rejects the "poisoner" translation:

Quote:

Question: I have heard that the passage in Exodus which reads "Suffer not a witch to live" was a mistranslation and that instead of "witch" it should have read "poisoner." Is this true?

Answer: No, it's not true. The King James Bible is absolutely correct. The words in their widest use simply refer to a witch or a sorcerer. And the ancient languages Akkadian and Ugaritic prove this. Here are two commonly used sources that verify this:

Strong’s Concordance
kashaph {kaw-shaf'}, Strong’s number 3784.

“Meaning: 1) to practice witchcraft or sorcery, use witchcraft 1a) sorcerer, sorceress
Origin: a primitive root; properly, to whisper a spell, i.e. to inchant or practise magic"

...

Thanks, the hebrew terms for this forbidden practice are called Ba'al ob ,Yidde'oni, and kashaph. Wiki defines these terms as;

Quote:

. . . being a ba'al ob[7][8]; ba'al ob literally means master of spirits. The corresponding parts of the Septuagint refer to eggastrimuthos (gastromancy)[9], a form of necromantic ventriloquism, in which the voice seems to be located in the stomach.

. . . being a yidde'oni[7][8]; yidde'oni literally means gainer of information from ghosts

. . . kashaph[2][3]; kashaph is of ambiguous meaning, being either from a root meaning mutter[4], or from a compound of the words kash (herb) and hapalah (using) - hence meaning herb user[5]. The Septuagint renders the same phrase as pharmakia (poison), so it may refer to magic potions
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witchcr...n_in_the_Bible

The actual enforcement of the death penalty was rather stringent according the following source;

Quote:

* There must have been two witnesses to the crime, and these must conform to a prescribed list of criteria. For example, females and close relatives of the criminal are precluded from being witnesses according to Biblical law, while full-time gamblers are precluded as a matter of Rabbinical law.
* The witnesses must have verbally warned the person seconds before the act that they were liable for the death penalty
* The person must then have acknowledged that he or she was warned, and yet then have gone ahead and committed the sin regardless.
* No individual was allowed to testify against him or herself.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religio...tal_punishment

Due to separation of church and state issues witches obviously should be allowed to practice their religion as long as no laws are broken. Free speech for those wishing to speak against witchcraft and other practices should also be respected. In any event, the NT does not give us any example of christians killing witches, rather they merely prayed concerning the person's condition.

Quote:

Acts 16:16-18

6Once when we were going to the place of prayer, we were met by a slave girl who had a spirit by which she predicted the future. She earned a great deal of money for her owners by fortune-telling. 17This girl followed Paul and the rest of us, shouting, "These men are servants of the Most High God, who are telling you the way to be saved." 18She kept this up for many days. Finally Paul became so troubled that he turned around and said to the spirit, "In the name of Jesus Christ I command you to come out of her!" At that moment the spirit left her.

In this day and age of political correctiveness, praying over an alleged witch would probably be considered a hate crime.

steve_bnk · 06-16-2010, 09:09 AM

What you may not have realized is that they may have taken you literaly at yuur words at being a real being a witch, or perhpas saw you as a demon.

What you have done is created a Christian urban legened in which a witch came to the aid of homosexuals...

Keith&Co. · 06-16-2010, 09:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steve_bnk

What you may not have realized is that they may have taken you literaly at yuur words at being a real being a witch, or perhpas saw you as a demon.

What you have done is created a Christian urban legened in which a witch came to the aid of homosexuals...

But then they'll have to describe their retreat or make something up about how they faced the demon down, strong in their faith.

Either way, they have to admit they lack faith, or lie, which is an abomination before god.

A small chip against the foundation of their faith, either way.

steve_bnk · 06-16-2010, 10:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keith&Co.

Quote:

Originally Posted by steve_bnk

What you may not have realized is that they may have taken you literaly at yuur words at being a real being a witch, or perhpas saw you as a demon.

What you have done is created a Christian urban legened in which a witch came to the aid of homosexuals...

But then they'll have to describe their retreat or make something up about how they faced the demon down, strong in their faith.

Either way, they have to admit they lack faith, or lie, which is an abomination before god.

A small chip against the foundation of their faith, either way.

I do not think so. It is not a belief, it is a reality that they live.

The problem I have with this approarch is it then makes an indiviudual atheist judge, jury, and executioner. An anti-theological 'Taliban' of sorts roaming the steets dissemintaing culturual justice. I don't think that it is something the majority of us want. It makes us then as the relgioius zealots.

As with AHs here on the forums, don't attack the individual attack the issues. In this case it may have been illegal public harrasment. In some cities if it is criminal to publicaly harass based on any sexual orientaion.

If it was that bad, I would have spoken up invoking freedom of expression which the religious enjoy applying to others as well. It is a defensible position. The law in specific cases potentionaly can have real impact on preserving expression fo us non-believers. For example, winning a batlle to have an atheist license plate.

Kicking dirt in the faces of the religious serves no purpose.

Outside of these forums, invoking mutal freedom of expression can lead to openings, mocking will not.

juergen · 06-16-2010, 11:29 AM

LOL, nicely done WVIncagold.

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

In this day and age of political correctiveness, praying over an alleged witch would probably be considered a hate crime.

Probably not a hate "crime" but without a doubt something that'll make people upset. Just as any Christian might get upset if a witch puts a spell over them in their face. Those unfazed by the prospect of a spell prob because of their doctrine that the spell won't hurt them, but I doubt they wouldn't be pretty bothered by it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keith&Co.

Either way, they have to admit they lack faith, or lie, which is an abomination before god.

A small chip against the foundation of their faith, either way.

Unless Jesus conveniently reminded them that instead of killing the witch, that this is one of those instances in which the demon won't come out without fasting, which would warrant them leaving, and then doing that a few days later, therefore saving a person's life. There's always a way out.

Joan of Bark · 06-16-2010, 06:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Due to separation of church and state issues witches obviously should be allowed to practice their religion as long as no laws are broken. Free speech for those wishing to speak against witchcraft and other practices should also be respected. In any event, the NT does not give us any example of christians killing witches, rather they merely prayed concerning the person's condition.

That didn't stop medieval Christians from inventing the inquisition.

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

In this day and age of political correctiveness, praying over an alleged witch would probably be considered a hate crime.

In this day and age of political correctness, objecting to someone praying over an alleged witch would probably be considered a hate crime.

WVIncagold · 06-18-2010, 09:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steve_bnk

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keith&Co.

But then they'll have to describe their retreat or make something up about how they faced the demon down, strong in their faith.

Either way, they have to admit they lack faith, or lie, which is an abomination before god.

A small chip against the foundation of their faith, either way.

I do not think so. It is not a belief, it is a reality that they live.

The problem I have with this approarch is it then makes an indiviudual atheist judge, jury, and executioner. An anti-theological 'Taliban' of sorts roaming the steets dissemintaing culturual justice. I don't think that it is something the majority of us want. It makes us then as the relgioius zealots.

As with AHs here on the forums, don't attack the individual attack the issues. In this case it may have been illegal public harrasment. In some cities if it is criminal to publicaly harass based on any sexual orientaion.

If it was that bad, I would have spoken up invoking freedom of expression which the religious enjoy applying to others as well. It is a defensible position. The law in specific cases potentionaly can have real impact on preserving expression fo us non-believers. For example, winning a batlle to have an atheist license plate.

Kicking dirt in the faces of the religious serves no purpose.

Outside of these forums, invoking mutal freedom of expression can lead to openings, mocking will not.

BS how was I mocking them? Its their commandment and religion. For all they knew i was telling them the truth. If i had taken your approach all that would have happened is a shouting match. they are coached how to respond to that by the bully pulpit. They are not however coached on what to do when faced with a true crisis of god’s law versus mans law. I was not in the mood for shouting match of ideas. I was in the mood though to let out my inner demon for a time to come out and play. Kicking dirt in their faces would have been making fun of their religion. Nor did I attack them in anyway. I informed them and allowed them to make their minds up. They choose flight over fight. However yes you are probably correct as it probably did cause a commotion around the bible study that night. I wonder if at the end of the story they all will agree they felt the power of evil suddenly upon them. As the song says "No mercy for the bad if they need it, No mercy for the bad if they plead, No mercy from me."

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06-16-2010, 05:32 AM	#23
Joan of Bark Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Pua, in northern Thailand Posts: 2,823	... or you could have pointed out that you've worked on the sabbath, and worn clothes of two kinds of material, or maybe even sown your field with two kinds of seeds ...

06-16-2010, 09:09 AM	#25
steve_bnk Contributor Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Seattle Posts: 27,602	What you may not have realized is that they may have taken you literaly at yuur words at being a real being a witch, or perhpas saw you as a demon. What you have done is created a Christian urban legened in which a witch came to the aid of homosexuals...

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