Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Cheerful Charlie · 03-16-2013, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wordy

Very good finding that one

Quote:

The Third Man factor or Third Man syndrome refers to the reported situations where an unseen presence such as a "spirit" provides comfort or support during traumatic experiences. Sir Ernest Shackleton in his book South, described his belief that an incorporeal being joined him and two others during the final leg of their journey. Shackleton wrote, "during that long and racking march of thirty-six hours over the unnamed mountains and glaciers of South Georgia, it seemed to me often that we were four, not three."[1] His admission resulted in other survivors of extreme hardship coming forward.

In recent years well-known adventurers like climber Reinhold Messner and polar explorers Peter Hillary and Ann Bancroft have reported the experience. One study of cases involving adventurers reported that the largest group involved climbers, with solo sailors and shipwreck survivors being the second most common group, followed by polar explorers.[2] Some journalists have related this to be the source of the guardian angel belief and children's imaginary friends. Scientific explanations consider this a coping mechanism for stressful situations or an example of bicameralism.[3] The concept was popularized by a book by John G. Geiger The Third Man Factor, that documents scores of examples.

Charles Lindberg told about his similar experience.

I had something in that direction but not that strong 1983.
or maybe I called it to come instead of getting it unknowingly?

My guess is that Michael Gazzaniga is talking about some less dramatic
expression of this when he refer to the "Interpreting Module" Process. IP

I often refer to it as the Autopilot but that maybe is misleading.

To name it Guardian Angel gives it too supernatural attributes
I trust it is absolutely natural and only delusional in how it has
been attributed. Factually it should be an evolved natural process
to allow us to see hope in hopeless situations? To get other perspectives
when one are too few to come up with other perspectives. A kind of
survival kit built in.

Could one name it "The Internalized Other"

Ancient Romanns belived we were born with a guiding spirit, a genius, that could help us throughout life, a guardia spirit if you like. Genius, spirits was a rather complex subject, a sort of soul that could also be associated with non-living things.

Check out hypogogic dreaming, AKA lucid dreaming,

And visitation dreams. It is not uncommon for people who have suffered loss of a loved one to have vivid hypnogogic dreams involving their departed family members or friends. About 1/3 of people who have lost a spouse seemm to have such dreams.

Was the risen Jesus myth based on such a vivid visitation dream of Mary Magdalene?

Such ideas may have given rise to ideas of spirits, heaven, and phenomenon such as mediums, such as the witch of Endor who raised Elisha's spirit for King Saul. And of course we have NDEs and other phenomenon.

Cheerful Charlie

Clivedurdle · 03-16-2013, 03:21 PM

http://www.philemonfoundation.org/re...blished_letter

Quote:

who-is-jungs-philemon4 Dr. Jung replied, “Only myself.”

Quote:

In later years, Jung explicitly linked his Philemon with the figure in the second part of Goethe’s Faust.1 On 5 January 1942, he wrote to Paul Schmitt:

You have hit the mark absolutely: all off a sudden with terror it became clear to me that I have taken over Faust as my heritage, and moreover as the advocate and avenger of Philemon and Baucis, who, unlike Faust the superman, are host of the gods in a ruthless and godforsaken age… I would give the earth to know whether Goethe himself knew why he called the two old people “Philemon” and “Baucis.” Faust sinned against these first parents2. One must have one foot in the grave, though, before one understands this secret properly.3

Here, the Faustian inheritance is redeemed through a movement back to the classical figures of Philemon and Baucis, through Goethe’s invocation of them; a movement from Goethe to Ovid.4 In Memories, Jung recounted: when Faust, in his hubris and self-inflation, caused the murder of Philemon and Baucis, I felt guilty, quite as if I myself in the past had helped commit the murder of these the two old people. This strange idea alarmed me, and I regarded it as my responsibility to atone for this crime, or to prevent its repetition.5

mountainman · 03-17-2013, 03:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cheerful Charlie

Quote:

Originally Posted by wordy

Very good finding that one

Quote:

The Third Man factor or Third Man syndrome refers to the reported situations where an unseen presence such as a "spirit" provides comfort or support during traumatic experiences. Sir Ernest Shackleton in his book South, described his belief that an incorporeal being joined him and two others during the final leg of their journey. Shackleton wrote, "during that long and racking march of thirty-six hours over the unnamed mountains and glaciers of South Georgia, it seemed to me often that we were four, not three."[1] His admission resulted in other survivors of extreme hardship coming forward.

In recent years well-known adventurers like climber Reinhold Messner and polar explorers Peter Hillary and Ann Bancroft have reported the experience. One study of cases involving adventurers reported that the largest group involved climbers, with solo sailors and shipwreck survivors being the second most common group, followed by polar explorers.[2] Some journalists have related this to be the source of the guardian angel belief and children's imaginary friends. Scientific explanations consider this a coping mechanism for stressful situations or an example of bicameralism.[3] The concept was popularized by a book by John G. Geiger The Third Man Factor, that documents scores of examples.

Charles Lindberg told about his similar experience.

I had something in that direction but not that strong 1983.
or maybe I called it to come instead of getting it unknowingly?

My guess is that Michael Gazzaniga is talking about some less dramatic
expression of this when he refer to the "Interpreting Module" Process. IP

I often refer to it as the Autopilot but that maybe is misleading.

To name it Guardian Angel gives it too supernatural attributes
I trust it is absolutely natural and only delusional in how it has
been attributed. Factually it should be an evolved natural process
to allow us to see hope in hopeless situations? To get other perspectives
when one are too few to come up with other perspectives. A kind of
survival kit built in.

Could one name it "The Internalized Other"

Ancient Romanns belived we were born with a guiding spirit, a genius, that could help us throughout life, a guardia spirit if you like. Genius, spirits was a rather complex subject, a sort of soul that could also be associated with non-living things.

Check out hypogogic dreaming, AKA lucid dreaming,

Also check out how the gospel authors demonised the Greek concept.

The Greeks called the mind (and the soul) the psyche.

εὐδαιμονία | eudaimonia

Clivedurdle · 03-18-2013, 03:44 AM

Born again xians believe they have a personal relationship with Jesus, and that xians who do not have this are somehow not true xians.

I think this is clear evidence that the guiding spirit is alive and well in the modern world. What has happened is that different people are on various continuums of how much they listen to and converse with the other, non-verbal side of their brains. Childhood imaginary friends and them disappearing as children get older are thus a part of turning children into modern rational reading writing logically thinking humans.

But to keep this in BCH, does the Hebrew Bible show evidence of this change, and have we mistranslated stuff by assuming the modern weltenschuang?

Barbarian · 03-18-2013, 08:09 AM

But, comrades ...

whether insanity in the form described as the bicameral mind exists is not the crux of the theory referenced by OP; of course it exists. The theory is that before 1000 BCE all people in the whole world were living exclusively in this state, and around 1000 BCE in the Middle of Nowhere East some people came out of it, the first in the world to do so, and then during the next 3000 years this development somehow spread around the entire globe, alternatively people in remote tribes still act mindlessly upon the internal voices they hear.

Chili · 03-18-2013, 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barbarian

But, comrades ...

whether insanity in the form described as the bicameral mind exists is not the crux of the theory referenced by OP; of course it exists. The theory is that before 1000 BCE all people in the whole world were living exclusively in this state, and around 1000 BCE in the Middle of Nowhere East some people came out of it, the first in the world to do so, and then during the next 3000 years this development somehow spread around the entire globe, alternatively people in remote tribes still act mindlessly upon the internal voices they hear.

I see you point, but it was never true that sentient beings were not self aware those days as they were those who wrote the good book that we still stumble over today, and some people will agononize over day after day. They so would call us insane and they also promised that an evil age will come wherein old men shall have dreams, which obviously was not so then.

From here, the real problem seems to be that we cannot return to it, of which now the bicameral mind is evidence that we are still divided in our own mind and cannot seem to return to our original state as primate, and there enjoy the benefits of our labors that we gathered while away from back-home East, and obviously feel ageing as a treath in the world that we proliferate without end these days.

Diogenes the Cynic · 03-18-2013, 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

But to keep this in BCH, does the Hebrew Bible show evidence of this change, and have we mistranslated stuff by assuming the modern weltenschuang?

One obvious flaw that I can see is that virtually all of the Biblical texts were written in the 6th Century BCE or later. While we have some embedded prior sources, we don't have a text that is 3000 years old so no way to compare it to anything. Pretty much the whole Tanakh is post-exilic, written in the space of about 400 years (about mid 6th Century BCE to mid 2nd century BCE), so there aren't any super old texts, and there is virtually no time at all by evolutionary standards.

Moreover, we do have lots of stuff that's really old that does show introspection. The Hindu Vedas, for instance or the Epic of Gilgamesh.

Chili · 03-18-2013, 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

Born again xians believe they have a personal relationship with Jesus, and that xians who do not have this are somehow not true xians.

I think this is clear evidence that the guiding spirit is alive and well in the modern world. What has happened is that different people are on various continuums of how much they listen to and converse with the other, non-verbal side of their brains. Childhood imaginary friends and them disappearing as children get older are thus a part of turning children into modern rational reading writing logically thinking humans.

But to keep this in BCH, does the Hebrew Bible show evidence of this change, and have we mistranslated stuff by assuming the modern weltenschuang?

They do not just believe but stand on it and will die for it as well, by degree of course and with respect to them.

I think that the real problem here is that daimon has been subverted to daimonion in absense of the effeminate that so only can bring the old earth images about in exchange for the celestial they seek.

Back then it was called the angel of the Lord who himself is androgyne again and so 'lukewarm' shit is about all he can muster and comes across to them as "Jesus speaking" now, and they must flip pages time and time again to confirm what they hear is true for them.

IOW, the Gaurdian angel is trying very hard but whithout the BVM in charge can only serve as a candle light to them, that they called Lucifer on account of that.

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03-18-2013, 03:44 AM	#14
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	Born again xians believe they have a personal relationship with Jesus, and that xians who do not have this are somehow not true xians. I think this is clear evidence that the guiding spirit is alive and well in the modern world. What has happened is that different people are on various continuums of how much they listen to and converse with the other, non-verbal side of their brains. Childhood imaginary friends and them disappearing as children get older are thus a part of turning children into modern rational reading writing logically thinking humans. But to keep this in BCH, does the Hebrew Bible show evidence of this change, and have we mistranslated stuff by assuming the modern weltenschuang?

03-18-2013, 08:09 AM	#15
Barbarian Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Hungary Posts: 1,666	But, comrades ... whether insanity in the form described as the bicameral mind exists is not the crux of the theory referenced by OP; of course it exists. The theory is that before 1000 BCE all people in the whole world were living exclusively in this state, and around 1000 BCE in the Middle of Nowhere East some people came out of it, the first in the world to do so, and then during the next 3000 years this development somehow spread around the entire globe, alternatively people in remote tribes still act mindlessly upon the internal voices they hear.

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