Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The Dagda · 01-03-2009, 06:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas II

Please read:
http://www.ewtn.com/library/Liturgy/zlitur144.htm

And also this. Read, and then we can talk.
http://www.latin-mass-society.org/20...sacrifice.html

Yes so?

Does that mean Christianity is a blood worshipping, death cult?

Great martyrdom is a sacrifice in the name of religion, it doesn't say everyone should go round drinking blood and killing themselves though does it. Let's put it into context here. It's hardly a thugee cult, that idolises death and murder.

EDIT: and yes I know but until I can link what it is supposed to symbolise you'll have to take my word that it is not intended to be a suggestion that sacrificing people is grand.

Thomas II · 01-03-2009, 06:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Dagda

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas II

But that is part of the point! He SAW himself as the lamb!
He DID see himself as the sacrificial lamb!
The whole mass and offering of the Eucharist ritual is a blood ritual where at some point, the priest sprinkles the altar with the blood of the sacrificed offering, in this case, Jesus' blood (in the form of wine).
The Catholic Mass is probably the most accurate ritual.

That reminds me of this.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=70IAwH...x=0&playnext=1

:rolling::rolling::rolling:

Thomas II · 01-03-2009, 06:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Dagda

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas II

http://www.ewtn.com/library/Liturgy/zlitur144.htm

Please read.

Yes so?

Does that mean Christianity is a blood worshipping, death cult?

Great martyrdom is a sacrifice in the name of religion, it doesn't say everyone should go round drinking blood and killing themselves though does it. Let's put it into context here. It's hardly a thugee cult, that idolises death and murder.

Did you read it? Both?

The Dagda · 01-03-2009, 06:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas II

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Dagda

That reminds me of this.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=70IAwH...x=0&playnext=1

:rolling::rolling::rolling:

"Don't you even know that yet? I've known since I was four?!?"

Lol.

There are quite a few of them there, enjoy. My favourites Matthew. Consider the lilies?

Ahhhhhhhhh........

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas II

Did you read it? Both?

Yes and I can't explain what the symbolism is because the only web site I know that does it well is down. And no it doesn't mean what you think it means.

Thomas II · 01-03-2009, 06:47 AM

Wait, I'm not suggesting that sacrificing people is grand!
I'm just trying to see what is exactly going on there,and the implications of the ritual and its symbols.

The Dagda · 01-03-2009, 06:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas II

Wait, I'm not suggesting that sacrificing people is grand!
I'm just trying to see what is exactly going on there,and the implications of the ritual and its symbols.

Ok unfortunately the idea behind it is carefully described on one web site that doesn't bloody work atm. But it'll tell you what you want to know from the horses mouth, or The Popes.

Oh well here's wiki for the time being:

Transubstantiation

Quote:

The Roman Catholic Church considers the doctrine of transubstantiation, which is about what is changed, not about how the change occurs, the best defence against what it sees as the mutually opposed interpretations, on the one hand, a merely figurative understanding of the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist (it teaches that the change of the substance is real), and, on the other hand, an interpretation that would amount to cannibalistic eating of the flesh and corporal drinking of the blood of Christ (it teaches that the accidents that remain are real, not an illusion, and that Christ is "really, truly, and substantially present" in the Eucharist,[12] not physically present, as he was physically present in the Palestine of two millennia ago).[13]

In the acrimonious arguments which characterised the relationship between Roman Catholicism and Protestantism in the 16th century, the Council of Trent declared subject to the ecclesiastical penalty of anathema anyone who "denieth, that, in the sacrament of the most holy Eucharist, are contained truly, really, and substantially, the body and blood together with the soul and divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ, and consequently the whole Christ; but saith that He is only therein as in a sign, or in figure, or virtue" and anyone who "saith, that, in the sacred and holy sacrament of the Eucharist, the substance of the bread and wine remains conjointly with the body and blood of our Lord Jesus Christ, and denieth that wonderful and singular conversion of the whole substance of the bread into the Body, and of the whole substance of the wine into the Blood - the species only of the bread and wine remaining - which conversion indeed the Catholic Church most aptly calls Transubstantiation"[14]. Many Protestant groups now celebrate Holy Communion more frequently than in years past, and no longer see such a practice as 'Roman'. There is also the tendency in some Protestant denominations to consider Christ to be present in the Eucharistic elements, though none would subscribe to belief in transubstantiation.

As already stated, the Roman Catholic Church insists that the "accidents" that remain are real. In the sacrament these are the signs of the reality that they efficaciously signify.[15]And by definition sacraments are "efficacious signs of grace, instituted by Christ and entrusted to the Church, by which divine life is dispensed to us."[16]

andrewcriddle · 01-03-2009, 07:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Dagda

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas II

Wait, I'm not suggesting that sacrificing people is grand!
I'm just trying to see what is exactly going on there,and the implications of the ritual and its symbols.

Ok unfortunately the idea behind it is carefully described on one web site that doesn't bloody work atm. But it'll tell you what you want to know from the horses mouth, or The Popes.

Try Transubstantiation

Andrew Criddle

The Dagda · 01-03-2009, 07:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Dagda

Ok unfortunately the idea behind it is carefully described on one web site that doesn't bloody work atm. But it'll tell you what you want to know from the horses mouth, or The Popes.

Try Transubstantiation

Andrew Criddle

Thanks, that works? Strange that I couldn't get up the main page? It's fine now though? :huh:

Thomas II · 01-03-2009, 07:37 AM

But transubstantiation is not what I'm talking about.
I'm talking about Jesus himself being the Pascal Lamb.
It is a ritual to have a new covenant with Yahweh!
With Yahweh! Are they having a laugh?
Jesus purposely wanted to go to the cross and be killed.
Jesus was in cahoots with Judas, who did not betray Jesus.
Jesus provoked the arrest.
Jesus wanted to sacrifice himself to Yahweh because he believed that by doing so, Yahweh would establish a new covenant. He would give his blood,and in return...yadayada
The deal was, not only to die, but to perform the sacrificial ritual as he was dying...

The Dagda · 01-03-2009, 07:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas II

But transubstantiation is not what I'm talking about.
I'm talking about Jesus himself being the Pascal Lamb.
It is a ritual to have a new covenant with Yahweh!
With Yahweh! Are they having a laugh?
Jesus purposely wanted to go to the cross and be killed.
Jesus was in cahoots with Judas. He did not betray Jesus.
Jesus provoked the arrest.
Jesus wanted to sacrificed himself to Yahweh because he believed that by doing so, Yahweh would establish a new covenant. He would give his blood,and in return...yadayada
The deal was, not only to die, but to perform the sacrificial ritual as he was dying...

I see? But that's just martyrdom and the fulfilment of a prophecy, ie that the stem of Jesse would be despised by many. I don't think it's anything more than a symbolic casting out of sin. After all Jesus may have died, but he returned to show us that the Lord is with us always, and all that stuff. It's not the same as me sacrificing myself and turning up Thursday week admittedly but it's a powerful symbolic message. Can you highlight what you mean by sacrifice clearly? And what implications you think martyrdom has?

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01-03-2009, 06:47 AM	#15
Thomas II Veteran Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: USA Posts: 8,254	Wait, I'm not suggesting that sacrificing people is grand! I'm just trying to see what is exactly going on there,and the implications of the ritual and its symbols.

01-03-2009, 07:37 AM	#19
Thomas II Veteran Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: USA Posts: 8,254	But transubstantiation is not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about Jesus himself being the Pascal Lamb. It is a ritual to have a new covenant with Yahweh! With Yahweh! Are they having a laugh? Jesus purposely wanted to go to the cross and be killed. Jesus was in cahoots with Judas, who did not betray Jesus. Jesus provoked the arrest. Jesus wanted to sacrifice himself to Yahweh because he believed that by doing so, Yahweh would establish a new covenant. He would give his blood,and in return...yadayada The deal was, not only to die, but to perform the sacrificial ritual as he was dying...

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