Freethought & Rationalism Archive

simon kole · 06-23-2011, 08:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saramago

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wiploc

Quote:

Originally Posted by aeebee50

Anything written by man is bound to fail.

Did you write that yourself, man?

simon kole said above that "the basic logical inconsistency and the basic doctrinal inconsistency of the Bible will be addressed" after he returns from travel in ~5 days. That gives us 5 days to figure it out before he returns.

I'm leaning towards "God works in mysterious ways" perhaps quoting Isaiah 55:8 ("for my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways") though really Isaiah 55:9 might be better for making sure those darned atheists recognize that God's word trumps all ("As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts").

There's also the "arguments" that (a) "God is infinite, we are finite" and/or (b) "God is at once infinite and finite". I don't know whether either is based on a specific verse in the Bible, but regardless of whether it comes from the Bible or an apologist's wet dream, I don't see how that helps explain inconsistencies. Some people seem to think being infinite would give God a pass or something.

You're right, they don't.

For what the Bible shows regarding the two "inconsistent" doctrines, see my post #35 on this thread

@ http://www.freeratio.org/showpost.php?p=6836009 .

simon kole · 06-23-2011, 08:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaybees

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saramago

simon kole said above that "the basic logical inconsistency and the basic doctrinal inconsistency of the Bible will be addressed" after he returns from travel in ~5 days. That gives us 5 days to figure it out before he returns.

My take on this, and I think it's "consistent" with simon's beliefs, is that god can do anything, ANYTHING, ANYTHING.

She can violate natural laws, logical rules, anything that humans can think of as well as anything that human beings can't think of.

What you and I see as a logical inconsistency in the bible simply reflects our limited vision, You and I can't see that god can make a rock so heavy that she can't lift it but also lift it.

Omnipotence is a handy quality to have.

It's not a matter of onmipotence.

See my post #35 on this thread @ http://www.freeratio.org/showpost.php?p=6836009 .

dockeen · 06-23-2011, 08:09 AM

Quote:

She can violate natural laws, logical rules, anything that humans can think of as well as anything that human beings can't think of.

And, according to some xtians, configure a universe to be observable in certain ways,
for the sole purpose of "testing one's faith".

simon kole · 06-23-2011, 08:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saramago

Right, but those are inconsistencies between the Bible & other historical reports, or between the Bible and Real Life (natural world, whatever).

With Adam & Eve* sinning when they should not have, yet that sin fulfilling God's will, simon kole seems to be acknowledging a theologic contradiction.

The "theological" contradiction of this event is discussed in my post #35 on this thread @ http://www.freeratio.org/showpost.php?p=6836009 .

However, there still remains mankind's charges of injustice and odiousness, both more than clearly expressed
in this forum, regarding the incompatibility (logical inconsistency) between the sovereignty of God and

1) free will of man, or compromised free will of man,
2) man's responsibility for his sin,
3) man's responsibility for Adam's sin,
4) the justice of man's responsibility for Adam's sin, . .and the most difficult of all,
5) the justice of man's responsibility for his actions when, by God's operation within man's disposition (e.g., Pharoah), man voluntarily does as God determines.

This will be addressed next in The Basic Logical Inconsistency of the Bible.
But, as you can see, there is a lot to be covered there.

Quote:

*interesting to note that simon kole focuses on Adam's sin; I don't think he mentioned Eve, probably because he was leaning on the NT regarding the importance & meaning of original sin, & (I hadn't noticed this before) there the focus is on Adam.

So then who has put the intense focus on Eve as the Original Sinner? Do we have the Catholic Church to thank for that, historically?

Davka · 06-23-2011, 08:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by simon kole

Quote:

Originally Posted by Davka

Either Universalism is correct, or your "god" is a monster.

I understand why you think that. I really do. It's more than odious to think we are not the center of the universe, but God is, and that we exist for his purposes, not our own. I understand how you feel. I really do.

No, you don't.

I do not for a moment think that we are the center of the Universe. We are insignificant specks whose fleeting existence barely registers against the background of the Universe.

It is Christianity which likes to pretend that the Universe was fashioned for us, and that we are the reason "god" made everything. It is incredible egotism, even with the caveat that we are supposed to do "his will" and not our own. Christianity may say "God is the center of the Universe," but it also says "and we're His favorites."

What Christians are incapable of doing is examining their belief system dispassionately. If they could do so, they would see how monstrous their BibleGod really is. Christians who study Comparative Religion regularly cluck their tongues at how "terrible" other gods are - Shiva, for example, or Ba'al - but they are blind to the fact that their own "god" is no different.

Davka · 06-23-2011, 08:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by simon kole

That the Bible is true is not the basis of my responses.

Bullshit.

Your responses assume that:

- The Bible is a coherent whole written by a single author,
- The Bible is true, and
- The Bible is the word of God.

Every single response you have made is predicated on these three assumptions. If you did not assume these things, you would not reply as you do.

Deus Ex · 06-23-2011, 08:36 AM

Quote:

5) the justice of man's responsibility for his actions when, by God's operation within man's disposition (e.g., Pharoah), man voluntarily does as God determines.

This is the one that I have a problem with.

For starters, God would be the one that gives man his disposition in the first place. Second, why should a man receive retributive punishment when he is actually doing the will of God? In other words, God hates sin, but He needs someone like Pharaoh to sin to further His plans, so He gives Pharaoh a disposition that insures that Pharaoh willingly wants to sin, so that God can be glorified in punishing Pharaoh and his army.

simon kole · 06-23-2011, 08:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

Miracles are not logical.
Miracles are contrary to logic.
Logic has no allowance for miracles. Logically, miracles do not happen.

The Bible is a book filled with miracle stories.
The Bible is logically inconsistent with observed realities.
It will also be the greatest miracle ever, if the Bible's miraculous accounts prove to be true.
If The Bible's miracles and promises prove true, observed reality, reason, and logical data were and are untrustworthy and false.

1) "Observed reality" is just that, what we can observe. It does not allow for what we cannot observe now, nor
did not observe of the ancient past.

2) The NT says that because of Adam's sin, mankind's (fallen) reason and understanding have both been compromised.

Reason and logic can take man only so far. The rest of the way to Ultimate Truth requires the opening of the mind by the Holy Spirit, as was done to the apostles so they could understand and believe Jesus' explanations of the Scriptures regarding himself (Lk 24:44-45).

Quote:

The practical application is; Do not entrust your life to observed realities, or to reason, or in expecting logical results or consequences;
Trust in The invisible What's His Name with all of your heart, and lean not unto your own understanding, reason, logic, or horse sense.

Give it up. Make no provisions for tomorrow. Place your total trust in invisible The What's His Name's miracles to miraculously provide you with everything you need.*

*This section is reserved for 'Bible Believers' only. All of those succeeding will posthumously receive The Darwin Award.

dockeen · 06-23-2011, 08:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Davka

Quote:

Originally Posted by simon kole

I understand why you think that. I really do. It's more than odious to think we are not the center of the universe, but God is, and that we exist for his purposes, not our own. I understand how you feel. I really do.

No, you don't.

I do not for a moment think that we are the center of the Universe. We are insignificant specks whose fleeting existence barely registers against the background of the Universe.

It is Christianity which likes to pretend that the Universe was fashioned for us, and that we are the reason "god" made everything. It is incredible egotism, even with the caveat that we are supposed to do "his will" and not our own. Christianity may say "God is the center of the Universe," but it also says "and we're His favorites."

What Christians are incapable of doing is examining their belief system dispassionately. If they could do so, they would see how monstrous their BibleGod really is. Christians who study Comparative Religion regularly cluck their tongues at how "terrible" other gods are - Shiva, for example, or Ba'al - but they are blind to the fact that their own "god" is no different.

There is a way of xtian teaching that emphasizes that man is not the reason
for creation, man is really quite unimportant, god had no need whatsoever to
create man.

This minimization of man gets xtians out of certain issues, but it runs
headlong into the following one - If man is so unimportant and unneeded
by god, then why did he create him, knowing the eternal cost and waste
of such a creation. The only answers here are some linear combination
of evil and stupidity.

And no, attempting to say that god performed this creation so that some
select few can have the great joy of hanging out with him does NOT
make him look any better, or make him any more worthy of love or worship.

simon kole · 06-23-2011, 08:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jarhyn

More important than any inconsistency within the bible (which YECers and literalists will always hand-wave away) are the inconsistencies of the bible with what according to them is the direct work of his hands, "creation" itself. Math and Logic and physics are properties of the universe itself; when the bible contradicts those things, I can only marvel at why anyone would pick the indirect work over the direct work as the authority.

Operating outside his laws of nature is likewise "direct" work.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.