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Master Coelacanth · 12-22-2009, 06:47 AM

I've been searching in the forum for a reference on this, but couldn't do any progress.

There is a passage in Tacitus, Annals 13.32:

Pomponia Græcina, a distinguished lady, wife of the Plautius who returned from Britain with an ovation, was accused of some foreign superstition and handed over to her husband's judicial decision. Following ancient precedent, he heard his wife's cause in the presence of kinsfolk, involving, as it did, her legal status and character, and he reported that she was innocent. This Pomponia lived a long life of unbroken melancholy. After the murder of Julia, Drusus's daughter, by Messalina's treachery, for forty years she wore only the attire of a mourner, with a heart ever sorrowful. For this, during Claudius' reign, she escaped unpunished, and it was afterwards counted a glory to her.

Christian sources mention this passage as a sort of proof that Christian faith was present in the core of Rome at 57 c.e. Are there any valid elements to identify such "foreign superstition" (superstitio externa) with Christianism? Or is it just wishful thinking?

show_no_mercy · 12-22-2009, 06:55 AM

I'm not sure Christianity was ever considered a foreign superstition. From the other Tacitus passage on a "Chrestus", he says that Christianity (or Chrestianity?) was first bred in Judea and then Rome. Not necessarily foreign lands.

Toto · 12-22-2009, 10:31 AM

newadvent claims:

Quote:

The "foreign superstition" of the Roman historian is now generally regarded as probably identical with the Christian religion. When de Rossi first conjectured that this might be the case, he announced his view merely as a more or less remote probability, but subsequent discoveries in the cemetery of St. Callistus confirmed his supposition in the happiest manner. The first of these discoveries was the tomb of a Pomponius Grekeinos, evidently a member of the family of Pomponia, and possibly her descendant; the inscription dates from about the beginning of the third century. A short distance from this, the tomb of a Pomponius Bassus was also found — another member of the family to which belonged the mysterious lady of the reign of Claudius. Thus the conversion to Christianity of this noble lady is established with a degree of probability that approaches certainty.

The standards for certainty are pretty low here.

There were a variety of "foreign superstitions" in Rome at the time, and Tacitus seems to know how to identify Christians - unless the reference to Christians under Nero is an interpolation, in which case we have no evidence of Christianity in Rome at the time.

Master Coelacanth · 12-22-2009, 04:34 PM

Well, it is obvious that Chrestus is not Christus, but why Tacitus would mention Christianity in times of Nero and not in this case, shortly before the supposed persecution of Christians?

Jeffrey Gibson · 12-22-2009, 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

newadvent claims:

Quote:

The "foreign superstition" of the Roman historian is now generally regarded as probably identical with the Christian religion. When de Rossi first conjectured that this might be the case, he announced his view merely as a more or less remote probability, but subsequent discoveries in the cemetery of St. Callistus confirmed his supposition in the happiest manner. The first of these discoveries was the tomb of a Pomponius Grekeinos, evidently a member of the family of Pomponia, and possibly her descendant; the inscription dates from about the beginning of the third century. A short distance from this, the tomb of a Pomponius Bassus was also found — another member of the family to which belonged the mysterious lady of the reign of Claudius. Thus the conversion to Christianity of this noble lady is established with a degree of probability that approaches certainty.

The standards for certainty are pretty low here.

There were a variety of "foreign superstitions" in Rome at the time, and Tacitus seems to know how to identify Christians - unless the reference to Christians under Nero is an interpolation, in which case we have no evidence of Christianity in Rome at the time.

Umm ... as I noted to you once before, there's Suetonius reference to the Christian movement in Nero 16.2

Quote:

During [Nero's] reign many abuses were severely punished and put down, and no fewer new laws were made: a limit was set to expenditures; the public banquets were confined to a distribution of food; the sale of any kind of cooked viands in the taverns was forbidden, with the exception of pulse and vegetables, whereas before every sort of dainty was exposed for sale. Punishment was inflicted on the Christians, a class of men given to a new and mischievous superstition. He put an end to the diversions of the chariot drivers, who from immunity of long standing claimed the right of ranging at large and amusing themselves by cheating and robbing the people. The pantomimic actors and their partisans were banished from the city.

Note too his designation of Christians as genus hominum superstitionis novae ac maleficae.

And as for Tacitus, does not he explicitly label Christianity a "foreign superstition" in his note that the Christian movement was born in Judea and though quelled for a while after Pilate had the founder of the movement crucified, "again broke out not only in Judæa, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular" (repressaque in praesens exitiablilis superstitio rursum erumpebat, non modo per Iudaeam, originem eius mali, sed per urbem etiam, quo cuncta undique atrocia aut pudenda confluunt celebranturque)?

Jeffrey

Toto · 12-22-2009, 06:28 PM

So in Book 13, Tacitus refers to an unspecified foreign superstition. In Book 15, if that reference is genuine, he explicitly refers to Christians, and indicates that they followed a mischievous superstition originating in Judea.

Is there any reason to assume that the superstition referred to in Book 13 is Christianity, as opposed to Druidism or some mystery religion?

foreign cults in the Roman Empire

Quote:

The worship of Cybele was the earliest, introduced from around BC 200. Isis and Osiris were introduced from Egypt a century later. Bacchus and Sol Invictus were quite important and Mithras became very popular with the military. Several of these were Mystery cults. ...

Druids were seen as essentially non-Roman: a prescript of Augustus forbade Roman citizens to practice "druidical" rites. Pliny reports that under Tiberius the druids were suppressed—along with diviners and physicians—by a decree of the Senate, and Claudius forbade their rites completely in AD 54...

Suetonius The Life of Claudius

Quote:

He utterly abolished the cruel and inhuman religion of the Druids among the Gauls, which under Augustus had merely been prohibited to Roman citizens;

Most foreign superstitions seem to have been tolerated by the Romans, except for Druidism. The timing of the ban on Druidism fits in with Pomponia, and she had been in Britain. Coincidence?

Toto · 12-22-2009, 07:13 PM

The Roman Invasion of Britain (or via: amazon.co.uk) p. 88:

Quote:

[Pomponia] is said to have succumbed to a foreign superstition, thought by some historians to have been Christianity, but on no firmer grounds than that it was the period of St. Paul's Epistle to the Romans, and a similar name has been found in the Roman catacombs. It could equally well have been an Egyptian cult considered too outlandish for a member of the higher ranks of Roman society.

show_no_mercy · 12-23-2009, 07:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Coelacanth

Well, it is obvious that Chrestus is not Christus

Chrestus was the (Latinized) title for Jesus for the Marcionites.

Jeffrey Gibson · 12-23-2009, 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

The Roman Invasion of Britain (or via: amazon.co.uk) p. 88:

Quote:

[Pomponia] is said to have succumbed to a foreign superstition, thought by some historians to have been Christianity, but on no firmer grounds than that it was the period of St. Paul's Epistle to the Romans, and a similar name has been found in the Roman catacombs. It could equally well have been an Egyptian cult considered too outlandish for a member of the higher ranks of Roman society.

My pointing you (for a second time) to Suetonius was in reference to your claim that if "the reference to Christians under Nero is an interpolation, [then] we have no evidence of Christianity in Rome at the time.".

Jeffrey

Toto · 12-23-2009, 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson

...
My pointing you (for a second time) to Suetonius was in reference to your claim that if "the reference to Christians under Nero is an interpolation, [then] we have no evidence of Christianity in Rome at the time.".

Jeffrey

No evidence except for another suspected interpolation. See Ken Humphrey's arguments

Quote:

Christians in Rome during the reign of Nero (54-68 AD) ?

Would (could) Nero have made such a fine sectarian distinction – particularly since there was no identifying faith document (not a single gospel had been written) – so just what would 'Christians' have believed?

...

Early Christ-followers called themselves 'saints', 'brethren', 'Brothers of the Lord' and their critics used various names: Nazoreans, Ebionites, 'God fearers', atheists. The Jewish association remained strong throughout the first century and when Christian sects got going in Rome in the second century they were identified by their rival leaders – Valentinians, Basilidians, Marcionites, etc.

So little were christ-worshippers known in the Roman world that as late as the 90s Dio Cassio refers to 'atheists' and 'those adopting Jewish manners'. Christians as a distinct group from the Jews appear only late in the 1st century, not long before the Jewish curse on heretics at the council of Jamnia (around 85 AD). The label 'Christian' itself only appears with the 2nd century Acts – with the story that the term 'began in Antioch' (11.26).

...

Quite simply, the reference is a Christian forgery, added to Suetonius to backup the work of the 5th century forger Sulpicius Severus, who heavily doctored the work of another Roman historian – Tacitus – with a lurid tale of brutal persecution ('torched Christian martyrs') which immortalized Nero as the first Antichrist in the eyes of the Christian church. (The second Antichrist being the reformist Luther.)

12-22-2009, 06:47 AM	#1
Master Coelacanth Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Argentina Posts: 7	Pomponia Graecina I've been searching in the forum for a reference on this, but couldn't do any progress. There is a passage in Tacitus, Annals 13.32: Pomponia Græcina, a distinguished lady, wife of the Plautius who returned from Britain with an ovation, was accused of some foreign superstition and handed over to her husband's judicial decision. Following ancient precedent, he heard his wife's cause in the presence of kinsfolk, involving, as it did, her legal status and character, and he reported that she was innocent. This Pomponia lived a long life of unbroken melancholy. After the murder of Julia, Drusus's daughter, by Messalina's treachery, for forty years she wore only the attire of a mourner, with a heart ever sorrowful. For this, during Claudius' reign, she escaped unpunished, and it was afterwards counted a glory to her. Christian sources mention this passage as a sort of proof that Christian faith was present in the core of Rome at 57 c.e. Are there any valid elements to identify such "foreign superstition" (superstitio externa) with Christianism? Or is it just wishful thinking?

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12-22-2009, 06:55 AM	#2
show_no_mercy Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Dancing Posts: 9,940	I'm not sure Christianity was ever considered a foreign superstition. From the other Tacitus passage on a "Chrestus", he says that Christianity (or Chrestianity?) was first bred in Judea and then Rome. Not necessarily foreign lands.

12-22-2009, 04:34 PM	#4
Master Coelacanth Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Argentina Posts: 7	Well, it is obvious that Chrestus is not Christus, but why Tacitus would mention Christianity in times of Nero and not in this case, shortly before the supposed persecution of Christians?

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