Clivedurdle

The sequence in the show shows some twigs being brewed in hot water. It had a very amusing immediate effect, making Woods ramble!

JohnG

This reminds me of a discussion about dopamine that naturally occurs in einkorn wheat that was grown at the dawn of the agricultural age. It was said that it impacted the population of human's brain functions and lead to a more advanced state.

I think it was purely speculative, but I found it interesting.

Also, I was looking into some modern methods of acheiving altered states. In one case, at a Christian camp for youth, they were doing some sort of scream ritual(?), and displaying some abnormal behaviour during this.

It was very strange to watch (youtube). From an outsiders point of view, I doesn't look very healthy or positive

Can a Christian who has been to such a camp provide any insight on this?

DCHindley

The problem is that the link you supplied does not link to a show but to a book. Is the link incorrect?

DCH

Clivedurdle

Sorry, it is both a book and a show - I just linked to the book.

Clivedurdle

I was brought up Pentecostal and have for example attended two hour plus singing in the spirit sessions.

Good musicians, singing, and it is easy - they had Paul McCartney on and a couple of songs - Hey Jude, for example, can easily if used by a pentecostal musician, get everyone singing in the spirit.


Conclusion, drugs help. but altered states of consciousness are easily achieved once you learn what to do.

Of course, part of the problem may be that the concept of I is an invention, and we are really several personalities or roles.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/womansho...8_03_wed.shtml

JayW

You can pretty much delete manna from the list as being a drug. It was a secretion of resin from the tamarisk tree. The Hebrew manna was taken from the Egyptian mennu,which meant food. The Arabs call it man es-simma,and still harvest and sell the sweet tasting resin,which is harvested early in the morning because it will melt in the sun. That's the same thing the Bible describes. I have no idea about the tree of knowledge,but the bitter herbs may well have been absinthe,which is still abundant in the Mediterranean.

DCHindley

You mean, like

Excerpt from Visions and Healing in the Acts of the Apostles: How the Early Believers Experienced God (or via: amazon.co.uk) (2004) by John J. Pilch
http://www.litpress.org/excerpts/0814627978.html

Intentionally induced trance ordinarily occurs in the context of a rite. Rites are structured, repetitive, and rhythmic patterns of behavior … This behavior has sometimes been called “ritual,” but from a social science perspective that word is inappropriate as will become clear in a moment. There are two kinds of rites: a ritual rite, a behavior that occurs irregularly in day to day life, and a ceremonial rite, a behavior that occurs with regularity.

Healing takes place in a ritual rite, that is, a behavior that is enacted only when someone is sick and seeks healing. ...

Ceremonial rites occur with regularity in human life at predictable times and moments. Fixed prayer is one example of a ceremonial rite …

I summarize here the model which I have constructed and presented in Appendix 3. This model incorporates insights from cognitive neuroscience and anthropology.

1. Sensory deprivation (e.g., fasting)
2. An appropriate place
3. Technique for inducing the trance (a posture; scripture reading; prayer; meditation; etc
4. Preparing oneself/ one’s body (purification rite: incense, prayer, etc.)
5. Preparing the mind (a “concentration” exercise such as breathing, etc.)
6a. A trance neurologically stimulated from the “bottom up” (overstimulating the senses)
6b. A trance neurologically stimulated from the “top down” (in the brain)
7. Recording and interpreting the trance experience

There are also three stages to the actual trance experience .... These stages and their characteristics describe the neurological changes in a person experiencing altered states of consciousness and documented by modern scientific technology.

Stage 1 the visionary sees geometric patterns; light (white) color
Stage 2 the visionary imposes meaning on these patterns
Stage 3 deepest stage; the visionary enters into the scenes and becomes part of the imagery

I've edited out the religious double talk where Pilch relates 9 statements in Acts to various altered states of consciousness he has conveniently constructed, and another that shows how these stages fits neatly the account of Paul's conversion vision in Acts.

Maybe it was because I was a psych major in college (I even graddiated) and have read a lot on that subject and also on sociology, but I am just not that impressed by the Context Group. They come across to me like they are trying just a little too hard to make some sort of "point" out of the subject, a lesson for us all to learn from.

"Though I am aware that my [Pilch's] research is making a scholarly contribution to the interpretation of Acts of the Apostles, I have written this book for pastoral purposes. At the recommendation of my Context Group Colleagues especially Stuart Love, Dennis Duling, S. Scott Bartchy, and Bruce Malina, I changed my initial plan of focusing only on trance experiences and healing in favor of presenting the reader with the broader context of these events in Luke’s total store line spanning nearly forty years (A.D. 30 •—A.D. 65 •). For this purpose, I have relied heavily on F. Scott Spencer’s presentation of the story line as noted above. To enhance the pastoral utility of this book, I have prepared reflection questions for the reader in personal or group study."

Malina and Demaris? Ahhh, you've been hanging about the Busybody? Tuesday, February 07, 2006 review of Social Science Commentary on the Letters of Paul (or via: amazon.co.uk) by, um, Malina and Demaris.

DCH

Bunky

Perhaps some insight into ancient religeons can be gained by observing the practices of hunter-gatherer tribes of the present day, such as this Yanomamo shaman, who (like the early christians) heals by chasing away evil spirits:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86XUul7iRtY

spamandham

This link makes a pretty good case for manna being psilocybe mushrooms. Biblically, manna is described as "bread" that tastes like fresh oil. That doesn't sound like a description of the resin you mentioned.

JohnG

bunky - I remember that film from when I was a kid. Those images are not easily forgotten. I immediately noticed how the shaman was using a combination of ASC techniques, in conjunction with a hallucinogenic.

What I also found interesting was the imagery described by the narrator of what the shaman envisioned: People coming down from above, light.... (coincidentally looks like the graphic in the link that spamandham provided)

spamandham - that was a great link. I am not as familiar with the bible as many of you here, I read the OT as a youngster and only have referenced the NT on the rare occasion that some of my hobby-history research calls for it. Those quotes from the bible are very convincing in the context they were used. The part about circumcision was a new one to me - and quite funny, but hey, I've heard of WAY weirder things that are true. The truth is usually stranger than the imagination.

The biblical description of manna in that link was a dead on description on psilocybe mushrooms. They grow all over here (Vancouver Island, British Columbia) as well as amanita muscaria. I have seen some huge specimens walking through the forests.

DCHindley The brain is a complex organ capable of "shifting-gears" so-to-speak. As the book you linked mentions, western thought is not as familiar with ASC as other cultures - some of Pilch's commentary is a little abstract for my pea brain, I am that typical westerner that he describes! - I still don't understand the alternate reality concept. Is that a perceived reality?....and another question DC, what context group are you referring to? Do you mean the specific biblical stories and the ASC stages that inspired them? Are you saying that it is unlikely?

Just what I've learned so far from this thread, and the links provided, I am thinking that a combination of ASC techniques were used for religious purposes by Christians. Both natural and chemical...all of the above.

I would be interested to hear some other opinions on the link that spamandham provided.

Thank-you