Malachi151

Good info in this thread. Another question about Psalm 82. What is the believed dating of Psalm 82? On the one hand it seems to be old due to the references to the gods, but on the other it seems to be recent due to the reference to holding "in estate all the nations". Or, of course, it could be a recent addition to an old poem. It seems like an interesting psalm, but I don't know much about it.

John Kesler

Here is one of my posts which discusses Psalm 82, quoting Mark S. Smith et al.

mg01

I tried to ask Dr. Smith in an email exchange about a year or so ago about his discussion of Psalm 82 in "Menoirs of God" but he politely redirected me back to his books and excused himself from any discussion.

mg01

Yes, lots. Check out the wikipedia article to get started.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_%28god%29

Michael Coogan's "Stories from Ancient Canaan" has transltions of some of the tales from Ugarit of El, Baal, etc...

El is found in enscriptions from Egyptian mines dating back to the 13th century.

mg01

I'm not familiar with Barker's ideas but would be interested in taking a look. Can you post a link as to where you think I should start?

The few alternatives to the DH I have seen fall short because they fail to explain the divisions better than the DH does. In particlular, the multiple lines of evidence that support them. I know some will argue those could have arisen later, but the notion that both textual analysis and archeology piont to the periods of Hezakiah and Josiah as "instigators of Yahwistic reform" seems to fit the data, plus E is so concerned with northern traditions which was wiped out in 722, arguing that it was much later becomes difficult.

I wouldn't put much of anything as written earlier than 850 though, and I lean toward a latter date for P and redaction than the standard DH would.

Cesc

Great thread you guys. For more discussion of YHWH vs. El, see this excellent thread.

Does anyone see a possibility in YHWH being first YH (pronounced "yah").
And YH simply originally being the Akkadian Ea (pronounced "yah")?
Ea, the son of Anu, seems to have many parallels with YHWH on several levels. Not only their place in the pantheon in relation to Anu/El respectively, but also mythical parallels.
Didn't also Anu allot to his offsprings, the Anunnaki "Sons of God" incl. Ea, the various nations according to their numbers, excactly like El seems to do?

What if the worshippers of YHWH were originally the worshippers of Ea from a little further up the coast of Syria, who had been (politically) allotted their land ("Ea's portion")? Following then the mythical trail of Abraham down to Canaan, a myth perhaps originally also symbolising the abandoning of the lunar worship of Sin, in favour of only Ea. What if, what if, what if.....

neilgodfrey

Margaret Barker's website is here. It contains links to some of her articles, as well as titles of books published. I've already mentioned that I have begun a series of summaries of one of her books here.

Some of the arguments for the DH hypothesis are circular. I don't have the time at the moment to outline them here vis a vis Barker's arguments, but intend to do so some time soonish I hope as part of my next chapter summary of The Great Angel. I'd like one day to have the time to edit old notes of mine on some of her other books too, but you would find it much quicker to read them through a library. But one thing Barker reminds us is that despite the supposed existence of the J and E narratives there is no evidence that anyone knew of them as separate entities.

As for the historicity of Josiah's discovery and reforms, these are also more hypothesis than fact, Finkelstein's and Silberman's publications notwithstanding. See, for example, notes on Davies arguments here.

Neil

J-D

Line by line

The Hebrew of verse 1 could give:

'Elohim' stands in the congregation of 'El'; in the midst of the 'Elohim' he judges

The Hebrew of verse 6 could give:

I said you are 'Elohim', and you are all sons of 'Elyon'

The Hebrew of verse 8 could give:

Arise, 'Elohim'

The Tetragrammaton does not appear in the Hebrew at all.

J-D

I think the Wikipedia articles on 'The names of god in Judaism', 'Yahweh', 'Elohim', and 'El (god)' are all worth reading on this subject.

mg01

I looked at the links you posted but didn't find anything that critiqued or offered alternative explinations to the underlying elements of the DH. The closest thing was your summary of Davies statements that he thinks Deuteronmy was post exillic without any support as to why.

The DH is of course a hypothesis, but the process of how if proposes the text came together is built around the demonstratable composite nature of the Torah. There may very well be a better explaination but it has to adress the same data. Davies objection to the romanticized version he imagines as what the DH suggests is irrevelent first because he is creating a straw man and second because any alternative offered has to be supported.

As for Barker all I see is someone lost in and trying to draw sense out of inconsistant theological rhetoric. If there was a point it was completely lost on me. All the texts she discusses are themselves products of different group's reinterpretaions of earlier scriptures. The early scriptures are only place one needs to look to try to understand what they meant, in which case we find usage no different than found in the myths of surrounding cultures. Analyizing much later works will show you nothing more than how later groups interpeted earlier ideas. Its the same thing found from analizing gnostic writings, all you learn is what the gnostics thought.

I tend to get the impression that in many cases those who criticize the DH don't understand the details as the alternatives they offer always seem to ignore them.