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Old 07-26-2009, 12:11 PM   #1
PhilosopherJay
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Default Was Popeye the Sailor More Historical Than Jesus of Nazareth

Hi All,

Almost no one today believes that Popeye the Sailor is an historical character. If Popeye is an historical character, it suggests that the amount of people that believe or disbelieve in the historicity of a character may be irrelevant to the actual historical nature of the character. In fact, Popeye is based on an historical character.

Elzie Crisler Segar started drawing Popeye on January 17, 1929, in his Thimble Theatre comic strip. Segar based the look and character of Popeye on Frank "Rocky" Fiegel, a man he had known growing up in Chester, Illinois. Here's a picture



Here's a picture of Popeye around 1933


Here is more information: http://www.ncs-glc.com/GLC/ed_black/segar/segar1.html)
Quote:
Segar turned to his youth for inspiration. There was a man in Chester named Rocky Feigle, who had a reputation for being handy with his fists. Thugs thought he'd be a pushover because of his short stature, but Feigle held his own. He worked in George Gozney's bar, sweeping out and straightening up the bar. He usually sat in a chair just outside the establishment. One day a group of five teen-aged toughs decided to lure Feigle to the woods behind the bar with the intent of robbing him. They did so, but when they tried to jump him, Feigle took care of three of them in short order. The other two, anticipating a similar fate, ran away. Feigle returned to his chair outside the bar, lit his corncob pipe and relaxed. Feigle died in 1947 at age 79. It's been strongly rumored over the years that Segar sent Feigle checks in appreciation.
As for the voice of Popeye, in the first animated cartoons, it was done by William "Billy" Costello, also known as "Red Pepper Sam" from 1933-1935. Animator Jack Mercer took over in 1935 and did the voice in over 400 animated cartoons till 1980.


Thus we know the voice, writers and the actual historical person Popeye was based on. On the other hand, we do know who wrote the Jesus character or who he was based, or if he was based on anybody. We also don't have any idea of his voice.
So, it seems to me that we can say that Popeye is more certainly historical than Jesus.

Warmly,

Philosopher Jay
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Old 07-26-2009, 01:37 PM   #2
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Quite. I prefer to compare Jesus with Robin Hood, Wilhelm Tell or even Till Eulenspiegel.

Among those Popeye may be the most certainly historical. I like that.
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Old 07-26-2009, 03:58 PM   #3
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Dear Philosopher Jay,

Greetings. all indications are that you appear to have recently eaten some spinach. Excellent. Porphyry considered vegetarianism and justice were involved with each other.

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Originally Posted by PhilosopherJay View Post
Thus we know the voice, writers and the actual historical person Popeye was based on. On the other hand, we do know who wrote the Jesus character
But we do know the name of the person who last performed the role of editor-in-chief of the Jesus story before it hit the streets in antiquity. The editor-in-chief, and the chief of the editor-in-chief and all the subsequent members of the organisational structure which accreted under the Roman gravitas of the business of getting the story publicised and accepted by the populace - the general public, the man and woman and child in the street -- all these people appear to have had certain specific and supremely authoritative knowledge that the four major cartoon-sheets on the Jesus character were written by his disciples Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, and in the very first century, contrary to the opinion of most modern academic scholarship.


Quote:
or who he was based, or if he was based on anybody.
Other documents edited and prepared by the editor-in-chief of the original first widely published version of the Jesus Story indicate a strong invective and polemic against the historical figure of Apollonius of Tyana. When we examine the biography of Apollonius, written in the middle of the Second Sophistic, we are provided with many reasonable parallels which need not detain us at this point.


Quote:
We also don't have any idea of his voice.
We can draw a multi-dimensional demographic map century by century of the effects the voice in the story published had on the human population, perhaps under the four categories recommended by Plato - the army, the rulers, the "Guardian Class" (which the Romans thought of as the Patricians and the Equestrians) and the "Producers and Consumers" (which the Romans thought of as the Plebians and the Slaves).

This might be termed multi-discipline-spectral listening.

Quote:
So, it seems to me that we can say that Popeye is more certainly historical than Jesus.

That's a good first step Philosopher Jay.
What will the second step be?

In the absence of plans for such a second step might I suggest a brief study of the genre of Pop-Eye clones. Other clever authors were obviously inspired by the original popeye, and cloned the idea.

Of course I refer to the new testament non canonical texts.

Do you think any of these popeye clones were on paper at all before Popeye became a superstar? The clones appeared after the superstar status.

Likewise we will find, at the end of this long and lonely road, that the author or authors of the NT apocrypha was inspired after the Jesus Story was first officially and widely edited and placed into publication for the edification (or Neronoian amusement) of the populace.

Keep up that spinach intake!
Pythagoras ate spinach.
And best wishes,



Lithargoel the Greek
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Old 07-26-2009, 09:07 PM   #4
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Default Clones and Realism

Hi Mountainman,

The last thought about studying the genre of Pop-Eye clones is really important. Growing up as a kid, I always thought that Popeye was a cartoon version of Superman. I took him as a clone of Superman. In truth, it is more accurate to say that Superman is a clone of Popeye.

Note that Superman is drawn in a much more realistic fashion than Popeye. So we may say that clones have a tendency to move towards realism. In the same way, Spiderman may be thought of as a still more realistic clone of Superman.

So I would suggest that the writers of the New Testament gospels were inspired by the original success of much of the unrealistic gnostic Jesus characters to move towards realism in their clone/versions of the character.

Incidentally, I do like spinach occasionally, but if the neo-Platonist Porphyry was a vegetarian, I think that's a good enough reason not to be one.

Warmly

Philosopher Jay

Quote:
Originally Posted by mountainman View Post
Dear Philosopher Jay,

Greetings. all indications are that you appear to have recently eaten some spinach. Excellent. Porphyry considered vegetarianism and justice were involved with each other.
{snip}

Quote:
So, it seems to me that we can say that Popeye is more certainly historical than Jesus.

That's a good first step Philosopher Jay.
What will the second step be?

In the absence of plans for such a second step might I suggest a brief study of the genre of Pop-Eye clones. Other clever authors were obviously inspired by the original popeye, and cloned the idea.

Of course I refer to the new testament non canonical texts.

Do you think any of these popeye clones were on paper at all before Popeye became a superstar? The clones appeared after the superstar status.

Likewise we will find, at the end of this long and lonely road, that the author or authors of the NT apocrypha was inspired after the Jesus Story was first officially and widely edited and placed into publication for the edification (or Neronoian amusement) of the populace.

Keep up that spinach intake!
Pythagoras ate spinach.
And best wishes,



Lithargoel the Greek
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Old 07-26-2009, 11:04 PM   #5
mountainman
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Greetings Philosopher Jay,

Your point on the man of spinach being a precursor to the man of steal is well taken. By the way did any of the US presidents build a monument or wharehouse or public jetty to Popeye (or Superman), or issue him on the US coinage? Thank goodness Porphyry digested Euclid!

Best wishes,


Lithargoel the Greek


Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilosopherJay View Post
Hi Mountainman,

The last thought about studying the genre of Pop-Eye clones is really important. Growing up as a kid, I always thought that Popeye was a cartoon version of Superman. I took him as a clone of Superman. In truth, it is more accurate to say that Superman is a clone of Popeye.

Note that Superman is drawn in a much more realistic fashion than Popeye. So we may say that clones have a tendency to move towards realism. In the same way, Spiderman may be thought of as a still more realistic clone of Superman.

So I would suggest that the writers of the New Testament gospels were inspired by the original success of much of the unrealistic gnostic Jesus characters to move towards realism in their clone/versions of the character.

Incidentally, I do like spinach occasionally, but if the neo-Platonist Porphyry was a vegetarian, I think that's a good enough reason not to be one.

Warmly

Philosopher Jay

Quote:
Originally Posted by mountainman View Post
Dear Philosopher Jay,

Greetings. all indications are that you appear to have recently eaten some spinach. Excellent. Porphyry considered vegetarianism and justice were involved with each other.
{snip}




That's a good first step Philosopher Jay.
What will the second step be?

In the absence of plans for such a second step might I suggest a brief study of the genre of Pop-Eye clones. Other clever authors were obviously inspired by the original popeye, and cloned the idea.

Of course I refer to the new testament non canonical texts.

Do you think any of these popeye clones were on paper at all before Popeye became a superstar? The clones appeared after the superstar status.

Likewise we will find, at the end of this long and lonely road, that the author or authors of the NT apocrypha was inspired after the Jesus Story was first officially and widely edited and placed into publication for the edification (or Neronoian amusement) of the populace.

Keep up that spinach intake!
Pythagoras ate spinach.
And best wishes,



Lithargoel the Greek
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Old 07-27-2009, 07:21 AM   #6
arnoldo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilosopherJay View Post
. . . So I would suggest that the writers of the New Testament gospels were inspired by the original success of much of the unrealistic gnostic Jesus characters to move towards realism in their clone/versions of the character. . .


Warmly

Philosopher Jay
If one is to take this approach then it seems much more plausible to surmise,as you state, that the gnostic writings came first which were then heavily redacted to create the more "realistic" writings. Any thoughts on the time frame of the gnostic writings and subsequent redaction towards the more "realistic" writings?
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Old 07-27-2009, 08:46 AM   #7
No Robots
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This actually strengthens the case for the historicity of Christ. If Popeye, a figure generally understood to be wholly fictional, is actually based on a real person, then does it not follow that the Gospel figure of Christ is quite likely based on a real person, too? Thanks, Jay.
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Old 07-27-2009, 12:40 PM   #8
James Brown
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I've wondered if Jesus of Nazareth can be compared to Uncle Sam, a personification of an abstract ideal.
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Old 07-27-2009, 12:45 PM   #9
Tom Sawyer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by No Robots View Post
This actually strengthens the case for the historicity of Christ. If Popeye, a figure generally understood to be wholly fictional, is actually based on a real person, then does it not follow that the Gospel figure of Christ is quite likely based on a real person, too? Thanks, Jay.
Well, it doesn't follow that because a certain fictional person is based on a historical person that therefore any other given fictional person is based on a historical person.
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Old 07-27-2009, 01:58 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesABrown View Post
I've wondered if Jesus of Nazareth can be compared to Uncle Sam, a personification of an abstract ideal.
Such imagery is common in the OT, the prophets often spoke of Israel as a corporate entity:

Behold my servant, whom I uphold, my chosen, in whom my soul delights;
I have put my Spirit upon him, he will bring forth justice to the nations.
He will not cry or lift up his voice, or make it heard in the street;
a bruised reed he will not break, and a dimly burning wick he will not quench;
he will faithfully bring forth justice.
He will not fail or be discouraged till he has established justice in the earth;
and the coastlands wait for his law.


Is 42.1-4

Thus the Lord GOD showed me: behold, he was forming locusts in the beginning of the shooting up of the latter growth; and lo, it was the latter growth after the king's mowings.
When they had finished eating the grass of the land, I said, "O Lord GOD, forgive, I beseech thee!
How can Jacob stand? He is so small!"
The LORD repented concerning this;
"It shall not be," said the LORD.


Amos 7.1-3
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