Freethought & Rationalism Archive

stephan huller · 03-13-2013, 01:25 PM

Very cool Andrew. It would seem the information goes back to very old material. It would be interesting to see who else argued for a Tuesday crucifixion.

stephan huller · 03-13-2013, 01:43 PM

From van den Broek's book:

Quote:

According to the Greek and Coptic division of the day, the night of the third day is the night from Tuesday to Wednesday, of which the ninth hour is at about 3 a.m. In all other instances where Pseudo-Cyril mentions exact hours—most probably a later development of this chronology, as will be shown — the author seems to have computed the days according to the usual Greek and Coptic reckoning. Both the Didascalia and Epiphanius explain the weekly fast on Wednesday as a commemoration of the arrest of Jesus on the fourth day of the week.108 The same reasoning is found in De fabrica mundi, a work by Victorinus of Pettau, who dies as a martyr AD 304. Pseudo-Cyril does not mention it.

There is still another text which must be mentioned in this connection, which brings us back to the apocryphal literature on Pilate. In the Story of Joseph of Arimathaea, a late Byzantine specimen of the Pilate cycle, it is said that Jesus was arrested on Tuesday in the evening, was set free in the evening of Wednesday, and was arrested again on Thursday in the evening.

Toto · 03-13-2013, 01:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

Actually the idea that Judas was necessary because Jesus could appear in different forms is ancient. It seems to go back to Origen.
See Allegory and Event

Andrew Criddle

Interesting.

Allegory and Event: A Study of the Sources and Significance of Origen's Interpretation of Scripture. (or via: amazon.co.uk) By Richard Patrick Crosland Hanson

Quote:

Bertrand calls attention to a passage where Origen says that Judas at the Arrest was obliged to kiss Jesus because a mark of recognition as necessary, propter transformationes eius, which no doubt means "on account of his epinoiai'.³ He notes that John's Gospel says that Jesus bore his own cross, whereas the other evangelists say that Simon of Cyrene bore it; this means that there are two epinoiai of the Coress, the Cross which Simon bears and that which Jesus himself bears.¹ The Resurrection Appearances were only an extension of these epinoiai

At first sight it appears as if Origen were claiming that Jesus, and presumably Peter and Paul and John the Baptist too, were capable of appearing to two or more different people in different places at the same time, when he expounds his theory of epinoiai. But in fact closer inspection assures us that this is not so. All he means is that where the evangelists give apparently contradictory accounts of Jesus those details which are inconsistent with the rest of the narratives are not descriptions of the historical Jesus actually teaching or healing in Palestine but are parabolic ways of describing different significances of Jesus, allegories of his ultimate significance for different sorts of human souls. That he conceived that these epinoiai made if difficult for people to recognize Jesus in the flesh, however, suggests that to Origen the dividing-line between Jesus incarnate as a real man in a period of history, as a human individual, and the idea or understanding of Jesus in the minds and judgments of men, was very thin and uncertain; he does not maintain, as the Fourth Evangelist does, that the two are inseparably found up together, but he conceives that the Jesus of history could during his life on earth occasionally dissolve into the Jesus of religious experience, leaving apparently no historical sediment behind. . . .

epinoia

epinoia = another definition

Quote:

Epinoia (Greek) Thinking on a thing; by extension of meaning, the power of thought, inventiveness; a purpose, design. In Gnosticism, a name of the first passive aeon or spiritual entity forming part of a cosmic hierarchy.

I'm not sure I understand all of this, or if it is meant to be understood.

stephan huller · 03-13-2013, 02:17 PM

Judas traded places with Jesus with the kiss - or so it was believed originally.

Quote:

The heavenly man has many more sons than the earthly man. If the sons of Adam are many, although they die, how much more the sons of the perfect man, they who do not die but are always begotten. The father makes a son, and the son has not the power to make a son. For he who has been begotten has not the power to beget, but the son gets brothers for himself, not sons. All who are begotten in the world are begotten in a natural way, and the others are nourished from the place whence they have been born. It is from being promised to the heavenly place that man receives nourishment. [...] him from the mouth. And had the word gone out from that place, it would be nourished from the mouth and it would become perfect. For it is by a kiss that the perfect conceive and give birth. For this reason we also kiss one another. We receive conception from the grace which is in one another. [Gospel of Philip]

The Muslims are right. Judas died on the cross in the place of Jesus - or so it was believed originally.

stephan huller · 03-13-2013, 02:24 PM

"They all have access equally, they all listen equally, they all pray equally - even pagans if they happen to come… They also share the kiss of peace with all who come." (Tertullian Prescription Against Heretics 41) The Pistis Sophia also:

Quote:

When then Jesus had said this unto his disciples, he said: "Understand ye in what manner I discourse with you?"

Mary Magdalene interpreteth the mystery from Psalm lxxxiv.Mary started forward again and said: "My Lord, I understand what thou sayest. Concerning the solution of this word thy light-power hath prophesied aforetime through David in the eighty-fourth Psalm, saying: 'Grace and truth met together, and righteousness and peace kissed each other. Truth sprouted forth out of the earth, and righteousness looked down from heaven.'

"'Grace' then is the light-power which hath come down through the First Mystery; for the First Mystery hath hearkened unto Pistis Sophia and hath had mercy on her in all her tribulations. 'Truth' on the other hand is the power which hath gone forth out of thee, for that thou hast fulfilled the truth, in order to save her out of the chaos. And 'righteousness' again is the power which hath come forth through the First Mystery, which will guide Pistis Sophia. And 'peace' again is the power which hath gone forth out of thee, so that it should enter into the emanations of Self-willed and take from them the lights which they have taken away from Pistis Sophia, that is, so that thou mayest gather them together into Pistis Sophia and make them at peace with her power. 'Truth' on the other hand is the power which went forth out of thee, when thou wast in the lower regions of the chaos. For this cause thy power hath said through David

'Truth sprouted out of the earth,' because thou wert in the lower regions of the chaos. 'Righteousness' on the other hand which hath 'looked down from heaven,'--it is the power which hath come down from the height through the First Mystery and hath entered into Pistis Sophia."

And Mary answered and said: "My Lord, concerning the word which thy power hath prophesied through David: 'Grace and truth met together, righteousness and peace kissed each other. Truth sprouted forth out of the earth, and righteousness looked down from heaven,'--thus hath thy power prophesied this word aforetime about thee.

"When thou wert little, before the spirit had come upon thee, whilst thou wert in a vineyard with Joseph, the spirit came out of the height and came to me in my house, like unto thee; and I had not known him, but I thought that thou wast he. And the spirit said unto me: Where is Jesus, my brother, that I meet with him?' And when he had said this unto me, I was at a loss and thought it was a phantom to try me. So I seized him and bound him to the foot of the bed in my house, until I went forth to you, to thee and Joseph in the field, and I found you on the vineyard, Joseph propping up the vineyard. It came to pass, therefore, when thou didst hear me speak the word unto Joseph, that thou didst understand the word, wert joyful and saidest: 'Where is he, that I may see him; else I await him in this place.' And it came to pass, when Joseph had heard thee say these words, that he was startled. And we went down together, entered the house and found the spirit bound to the bed. And we looked on thee and him and found thee like unto him. And he who was bound to the bed was unloosed; he took thee in his arms and kissed thee, and thou also didst kiss him. Ye became one.

"This then is the word and its solution. 'Grace' is the spirit which hath come down out of the height through the First Mystery, for it hath had mercy on the race of men and sent its spirit that he should forgive the sins of the whole world, and they should receive the mysteries and inherit the Light-kingdom. 'Truth' on the other hand is the power which hath sojourned with me. When it had come forth out of Barbēlō, it became material body for thee, and hath made proclamation concerning the region of Truth. 'Righteousness' is thy spirit, who hath brought the mysteries out of the height to give them to the race of men. 'Peace' on the other hand is the power which hath sojourned in thy material body according to the world, which hath baptized the race of men, until it should make it stranger unto sin and make it at peace with thy spirit, so that they may be at peace with the emanations of the Light; that is, 'Grace and truth kissed each other.' As it saith: 'Truth sprouted forth out of the earth,'--'truth' is thy material body which sprouted forth out of me according to the world of men, and hath made proclamation concerning the region of Truth. And again as it saith: 'Righteousness [looked down] from heaven'--'righteousness' is the power which looked out of the height, which will give the mysteries of the Light to the race of men, so that they will become righteous and good, and inherit the Light-kingdom."

It came to pass then, when Jesus had heard these words which his mother Mary spake, that he said: "Well said, finely, Mary."

The Gospel of Truth:

Quote:

For the place to which they send their thought, that place, their root, is what takes them up in all the heights, to the Father. They possess his head, which is rest for them, and they are supported, approaching him, as though to say that they have participated in his face by means of kisses. But they do not become manifest in this way, for they are not themselves exalted; (yet) neither did they lack the glory of the Father, nor did they think of him as small, nor that he is harsh, nor that he is wrathful, but (rather that) he is a being without evil, imperturbable, sweet, knowing all spaces before they have come into existence, and he had no need to be instructed.

The same idea is present in the Tripartate Tractate:

Quote:

Those which exist have come forth from the Son and the Father like kisses, because of the multitude of some who kiss one another with a good, insatiable thought, the kiss being a unity, although it involves many kisses. This is to say, it is the Church consisting of many men that existed before the aeons, which is called, in the proper sense, "the aeons of the aeons." This is the nature of the holy imperishable spirits, upon which the Son rests, since it is his essence, just as the Father rests upon the Son.

The idea that the spiritual essence of Jesus was transferred by means of the kiss of peace is also present in the very old Hymn of the Pearl preserved in the Acts of Judas Thomas:

Quote:

It flew in the form of the Eagle, Of all the winged tribes the king-bird; It flew and alighted beside me, And turned into speech altogether.
At its voice and the sound of its winging, I waked and arose from my deep sleep. Unto me I took it and kissed it; I loosed its seal and I read it. E’en as it stood in my heart writ, The words of my Letter were written. I remembered that I was a King’s son, And my rank did long for its nature. I bethought me again of the Pearl, For which I was sent down to Egypt ...

mountainman · 03-13-2013, 10:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

Here is the newspaper article http://www.livescience.com/27840-sha...ient-text.html.

From your article:

Quote:

In the canonical bible the apostle Judas betrays Jesus in exchange for money by using a kiss to identify him leading to Jesus' arrest. This apocryphal tale explains that the reason Judas used a kiss, specifically, is because Jesus had the ability to change shape.

"Then the Jews said to Judas: How shall we arrest him [Jesus], for he does not have a single shape but his appearance changes. Sometimes he is ruddy, sometimes he is white, sometimes he is red, sometimes he is wheat coloured, sometimes he is pallid like ascetics, sometimes he is a youth, sometimes an old man ..." This leads Judas to suggest using a kiss as a means to identify him. If Judas had given the arresters a description of Jesus he could have changed shape. By kissing Jesus Judas tells the people exactly who he is.

This text matches what Photius writes about the stories of Jesus in a book written by Leucius Charinus.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Photius BIBLIOTHECA OR MYRIOBIBLON

114. [Lucius Charinus, Circuits of the Apostles: Acts of Peter,
Acts of John, Acts of Andrew, Acts of Thomas, Acts of Paul]

Read a book entitled Circuits [1] of the Apostles, comprising the Acts of Peter,
John, Andrew, Thomas, and Paul, the author being one Lucius Charinus, [2] as
the work itself shows. The style is altogether uneven and strange; the words
and constructions, if sometimes free from carelessness, are for the most part
common and hackneyed; there is no trace of the smooth and spontaneous expression,
which is the essential characteristic of the language of the Gospels and Apostles,
or of the consequent natural grace.

The contents also is very silly and self-contradictory. The author asserts that
the God of the Jews, whom he calls evil, whose servant Simon Magus was, is one God,
and Christ, whom he calls good, another. Mingling and confounding all together,
he calls the same both Father and Son. He asserts that He never was really made man,
but only in appearance; that He appeared at different times in different form
to His disciples, now as a young, now as an old man, and then again as a boy,
now taller, now shorter, now very tall, so that His head reached nearly to heaven.

////

It appears to be more pulp fiction (again possibly sourced from the earlier part of the 4th century) about Jesus, and on this occasion highlights the authorial ploy that Jesus was a shape-shifter, and appears to various people in various guises.

I still cant help thinking that someone was soundly satirizing the Canonical 4th century God.

Yes of course this was totally illegal and very unhealthy, but someone I think trashed our man Big J.

Quote:

The idea is that Cyril 'couldn't have' written this because it contains all sorts of stupid beliefs.

But again, is that a proven hypothesis?

Don't we at least have to develop an argument for the proposition before we dismiss the authorship as it is? Scholars typically don't see the need for any sort of debate because they just assume that Cyril was one of them. I find this dangerous and typical of the dogmatism that keeps us thinking in terms of universal orthodoxy among the early writers rather than considering the possibility that the faith displayed in many of their writings was often added to the lost original or even feigned.

I think that the reference to Cyril was added as part of the satire or parody. We see a similar ploy in another apocryphal text as follows:

THE HISTORY OF
JOHN, THE SON OF ZEBEDEE
THE APOSTLE AND EVANGELIST.

The text commences with the following ....

Quote:

The history of John, the son of Zebedee, who lay upon the breast of our Lord Jesus at the supper, and said, "Lord, who betrayeth Thee?" This history was composed by Eusebius of Cæsarea concerning S. John, who found it in a Greek book, and it was translated into Syriac, when he had learned concerning his way of life and his birth and his dwelling in the city of Ephesus, after the ascension of our Lord to Heaven

Nobody thinks that Eusebius composed this story.

A very non canonical someone is slandering the canonical Eusebius.

In the same sense, IMO, with the Shape-Shifting Jesus in a book attributed to Cyril, a very non canonical someone is slandering the canonical Cyril of Jerusalem.

The hypothesis that I would be exploring, because these 4th century orthodox identities are being "used" by authors of all sorts of stories including gospels and acts, is that the main body of the non canonical texts were actually authored in the early 4th century, as a reaction to the appearance of the books championed by the orthodox Cyril and Eusebius.

The 4th century monotheistic state church and its canonical books must have been CHALLENGED by the generation which witnessed its supremacy under the Nicaean Agreement. This is so natural. It's just a political reaction.

εὐδαιμονία | eudaimonia

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03-13-2013, 01:25 PM	#11
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	Very cool Andrew. It would seem the information goes back to very old material. It would be interesting to see who else argued for a Tuesday crucifixion.

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